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Scientists finally prove there IS life after death

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That we're made of the same stuff, humans and chimps, so we're related and
the common ancestor went extinct, even though the common ancestor not
found yet, they said the common ancestor was here 25 millions years ago
and then they said 5 millions years
Again, you clearly do not understand the actual science being taught. So when you criticise it, you are not criticizing the actual science, but a caricature of your own imagination. You prove only that you do not know the science. You should educate yourself first about these things, then offer up your criticisms, if you feel you are qualified to.

Do you know what DNA is, out of curiosity? Do you understand that the Theory of Evolution is proved out in nearly all fields of the sciences, and is not based upon simple superficial comparisons, such as chimps have two eyes and so do we, so therefore we're cousins? Do you trust DNA tests to prove your relationship with your own relatives? That's just ONE example of the evidences that are prolifically availability validating the Theory.

The evidence of the common ancestor, where is he and she?
Where is your 23rd Great Grandmother? Do you have her bones to prove she existed? Do you need them to accept she did? Or do you rely on other proofs?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
heard somewhere (sorry I can't recall the report)

resuscitation experts are now leaning to the notion recovery can happen 8hrs after the last breath

I don't believe it

too much damage

but I also suspect life after death has spiritual requirements
like the ability to keep your wits when you loose all else

it probably does no good to scream your way into the next life
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
A team of British researchers have “confirmed” that consciousness can go on when someone dies but the study also uncovered some disturbing aspects of the so-called afterlife.
http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/weird-news/scientists-finally-prove-life-after-7989503

Do you believe in the afterlife or still in doubt?
No "still" with me, and I would not call it "doubt" either.

Brain damage evidence is all but conclusive that "what we are" is to a decisive extent a function of our brains. And there are some serious internal flaws of logic in the most frequent claims of afterlife, anyway.

That merely shows that the brain takes time to succumb to the effects of oxygen starvation.
Pretty much that.
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Also, on the topic of NDEs, we already know what causes them and why the experiences seem so similar.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/peace-of-mind-near-death/
Not wanting to work my way through all of the links you provided, I'll use one as an example of a point I wish to make. The whole whole idea of "science can explain the causes", therefore it's not anything mystical notion is a pretty flat and frankly uninteresting and uninformative thing in the big picture. It's great science can examine the physiological components of the experience, but to say they are "cause by the brain", and therefore they are nothing more than that is to say the least a bit myopic.

From the opening sentence of the above article it states, "Near-death experiences are often thought of as mystical phenomena, but research is now revealing scientific explanations for virtually all of their common features.". In response I will say they are not "thought of as a mystical phenomena", they actual are a mystical experience. That is their very nature. Even if there is a "scientific explanation", what happens in the brain, they are still a mystical experience. The nature of what they are, the impact it has on someone's life, what it opens their minds to, and so forth are in fact "transcendent" in nature, going beyond the "normal" or mundane into what is commonly understood as "spiritual" or going beyond simple or "normal" mind/body experiences.

The very fact of the word choice alone in the opening sentence of that article treats "scientific explanations" as the final thought, the authoritative voice alone on the nature of NDEs. I think that is a sad limitation of a popular notion that science is the answer-king. This is not to deny that there are of course things going on in the brain during such experiences, or that science can in fact look at them. To me, that validates that the experience is not "made up" or "just in your head". It is physiological proof of an actual experience that is happening, just as all experiences are registered in the brain. That's first and foremost. It is proof that the NDE being reported, actually has certain signature marks in the brain.

But to interpret this as the experience is caused by the brain, as in some sort of malfunctioning, that the phenomenon is nothing more than the brain "doing something" and we're just along for the ride is completely erroneous and non-scientific! If this "conclusion" were true, then you have have to conclude your brain "made" you feel love for your spouse, that your love is not actually a real phenomenon that has any sort of actual truth or value or knowledge in and of itself, other than your love for them being a strange sort of entertainment factor as your consciousness rides the raft of your brain just "doing it's thing". ;) Sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander here. Such conclusions are NOT scientific, but philosophical. That is not science that concludes that, or "explains" it.

Likewise the "religious explanation" is just as speculative as the "scientific explanation". All that is happening in both instances is taking what available data there is and creating a model of explanation using the symbols of its framework of language. That we can see actual brain function, that we are using that language to help talk about the experience can be helpful, but to "conclude" anything is to say the least not going to tell us much or open our understanding of the nature of these things. It's the same thing with one's theologies about these things, that "It's the god that sends spirits to you from beyond the grave". That's a valid explanation too, based on the available symbolic system at their disposal. But it's obvious there is more to the picture than that! And there is more to the picture than the "scientific explanation" as well.

Science is itself ultimately simply a language, not Truth itself that concludes anything. Answers are not static points where we find "explanations" for and questions cease in the face of our "facts". That is a very bad notion of any system of translation of reality we use, and used like that it becomes a theology in itself, defining Ultimately Truth and Reality. Science used like that, is in effect just another theology making pronouncements about God.
 
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Jumi

Well-Known Member
What this means that there is consciousness after being clinically pronounced dead. How long does it last? Minutes at least.
 

jonathan180iq

Well-Known Member
Not wanting to work my way through all of the links you provided, I'll use one as an example of a point I wish to make. The whole whole idea of "science can explain the causes", therefore it's not anything mystical notion is a pretty flat and frankly uninteresting and uninformative thing in the big picture. It's great science can examine the physiological components of the experience, but to say they are "cause by the brain", and therefore they are nothing more than that is to say the least a bit myopic.

From the opening sentence of the above article it states, "Near-death experiences are often thought of as mystical phenomena, but research is now revealing scientific explanations for virtually all of their common features.". In response I will say they are not "thought of as a mystical phenomena", they actual are a mystical experience. That is their very nature. Even if there is a "scientific explanation", what happens in the brain, they are still a mystical experience. The nature of what they are, the impact it has on someone's life, what it opens their minds to, and so forth are in fact "transcendent" in nature, going beyond the "normal" or mundane into what is commonly understood as "spiritual" or going beyond simple or "normal" mind/body experiences.

The very fact of the word choice alone in the opening sentence of that article treats "scientific explanations" as the final thought, the authoritative voice alone on the nature of NDEs. I think that is a sad limitation of a popular notion that science is the answer-king. This is not to deny that there are of course things going on in the brain during such experiences, or that science can in fact look at them. To me, that validates that the experience is not "made up" or "just in your head". It is physiological proof of an actual experience that is happening, just as all experiences are registered in the brain. That's first and foremost. It is proof that the NDE being reported, actually has certain signature marks in the brain.

But to interpret this as the experience is caused by the brain, as in some sort of malfunctioning, that the phenomenon is nothing more than the brain "doing something" and we're just along for the ride is completely erroneous and non-scientific! If this "conclusion" were true, then you have have to conclude your brain "made" you feel love for your spouse, that your love is not actually a real phenomenon that has any sort of actual truth or value or knowledge in and of itself, other than your love for them being a strange sort of entertainment factor as your consciousness rides the raft of your brain just "doing it's thing". ;) Sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander here. Such conclusions are NOT scientific, but philosophical. That is not science that concludes that, or "explains" it.

Likewise the "religious explanation" is just as speculative as the "scientific explanation". All that is happening in both instances is taking what available data there is and creating a model of explanation using the symbols of its framework of language. That we can see actual brain function, that we are using that language to help talk about the experience can be helpful, but to "conclude" anything is to say the least not going to tell us much or open our understanding of the nature of these things. It's the same thing with one's theologies about these things, that "It's the god that sends spirits to you from beyond the grave". That's a valid explanation too, based on the available symbolic system at their disposal. But it's obvious there is more to the picture than that! And there is more to the picture than the "scientific explanation" as well.

Science is itself ultimately simply a language, not Truth itself that concludes anything. Answers are not static points where we find "explanations" for and questions cease in the face of our "facts". That is a very bad notion of any system of translation of reality we use, and used like that it becomes a theology in itself, defining Ultimately Truth and Reality. Science used like that, is in effect just another theology making pronouncements about God.

I'm not doubting the personal value to these experiences at all. To think that would be to be adding something to my argument that I haven"t said.
I'm simply suggesting that the amount of mystical, impactful, transcendental, or spiritual feelings associated with them (or anything else for that matter) are a direct result of the brain doing it's thing, and little more. It is the brain, we agree, that is creating the ride that we are along for, as you put it, even if you don't agree with how much control we have over it.

This is true of anything, not just NDEs. If you look at your favorite or most moving work of art, there is something seemingly transcendent about it; something that moves you personally in a way that reminds you perhaps of who you are, or of cherished memories of childhood, or of the greater version of humanity that you long for... whatever you want to say here. But those sentiments that you have towards that work of art, or towards that personal memory or experience, or towards that NDE that was forever life-changing for you, are not universal. They're something personal and a direct result of your unique set of life experiences which have formed your personality. They're a result of an almost infinite number of variables that went into making you the person that you are right now, beginning the moment that your brain first started processing data and ending at the period of this sentence. This is true of you, of me, and of any other test subject in any other test at any time in history. What you and I view as reality is entirely dependent on those variables, and on the health and functionality of our brain. When you remove those factors, or change those variables, everything else changes along with them. You are not you without everything that has led up to this point, right? You might be like you - but you wouldn't be you. Remove the health of the brain, and you, similarly, are not you any more than I would be I.

The point of this thread as I've read it, and a seemingly popular one moving through the forums right now, is the topic of whether or not the mind is a thing entirely separate from the brain, which is certainly a welcome idea for theists, I would imagine. It's the point the OP is trying to make, albeit glossed over with arguments for an afterlife, which hopefully for the writer validates their position, but it's lacking... And that's what I'm getting at.

You can't turn to science to help validate your mythical positions and then turn from it when it challenges those positions. That's not ever going to be how knowledge works. Consistency is the standard that matters.

Factually, you are nothing without your brain. I don't really see how anyone can argue otherwise. We can go 'round and 'round for months arguing logically, and loosely using the rules of debate, to state otherwise. But there's factually nothing to support the idea that these experiences somehow objectively exist outside of the subjective meaning that we apply to them. You aren't moved by pieces of art that you've never seen, for example. You aren't inspired by experiences or memories that you've never had... That should tell you everything you need to know about the argument that you somehow exist outside of the data that's input into the brain. Your mind, and mine, is a result of what it has ingested - nothing more and nothing less. The idea that we are somehow more than the biology that we possess is an illusion. It also dispels the concept of ego and of self, but I digress.

I'll say again, for emphasis, that this does not take away from the grandeur of the personal experience. It does not diminish the beauty of the sunset to know how it's visualized and processed. It does, however, imply that without sensory input and a way to process it that the sunset is pointless, if it exists at all.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
If the brain and mind are really two separate things, show me a functioning mind without a brain.
Here is a couple for your consideration. After Death Communication (from loved ones). These include physical evidence; even pranks and materializations. Also consider Dr. Gary Schwartz's triple-blind test of alleged gifted medium (which eliminate the possibility of the usual hypothesis of cold reading) giving fantastic odds against chance results. These and many other things collected by serious (not tabloid) scientists; seem like strong evidence to me.

Also just on the topic of the gravity and out of body issue, the results have been used by both sides in the debate. The mind/body dualist would say the unusual situation of extreme forces causes a true distortion in the body/mind link leading to the weird experiences.[/QUOTE]
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Again, you clearly do not understand the actual science being taught. So when you criticise it, you are not criticizing the actual science, but a caricature of your own imagination. You prove only that you do not know the science. You should educate yourself first about these things, then offer up your criticisms, if you feel you are qualified to.

Tell me then where my mistakes lay, i said the similarity between humans and the chimps(genetic differences) are what makes
us related, made from the same stuff, the DNA

Do you know what DNA is, out of curiosity? Do you understand that the Theory of Evolution is proved out in nearly all fields of the sciences, and is not based upon simple superficial comparisons, such as chimps have two eyes and so do we, so therefore we're cousins? Do you trust DNA tests to prove your relationship with your own relatives? That's just ONE example of the evidences that are prolifically availability validating the Theory.

Exactly as i trust that the Radio and the TV are related and made from the same stuff(electronic circuits)


Where is your 23rd Great Grandmother? Do you have her bones to prove she existed? Do you need them to accept she did? Or do you rely on other proofs?

If we'll go further then we'll be the bacteria, and bacteria still existing.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
A team of British researchers have “confirmed” that consciousness can go on when someone dies but the study also uncovered some disturbing aspects of the so-called afterlife.
http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/weird-news/scientists-finally-prove-life-after-7989503

Do you believe in the afterlife or still in doubt?

Question: how do we know that these amazing things have been experienced during cardiac, or cerebral, arrest? Was the dead guy describing what he was experiencing while his line was flat? :)

By the way, do you think those people were dead? If yes, do you think they resurrected?

Ciao

- viole
 

Jumi

Well-Known Member

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Question: how do we know that these amazing things have been experienced during cardiac, or cerebral, arrest? Was the dead guy describing what he was experiencing while his line was flat? :)

By the way, do you think those people were dead? If yes, do you think they resurrected?

Ciao

- viole

They were dead for a very short period of time, but they were conscious of what was happening
around them, it's a mystery for most scientists as to find an explanation for how such persons were
conscious while clinically dead, thousands have been observed and many studies were made.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
They were dead for a very short period of time, but they were conscious of what was happening
around them, it's a mystery for most scientists as to find an explanation for how such persons were
conscious while clinically dead, thousands have been observed and many studies were made.

So, how do you know that what they experienced happened at the exact time their line was flat? And not shortly before or after, for instance.

Ciao

- viole
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Question: how do we know that these amazing things have been experienced during cardiac, or cerebral, arrest? Was the dead guy describing what he was experiencing while his line was flat? :)
The evidence for it occurring during the flat-line is when they describe the external scene with verifiable facts during the time of no higher brain functioning. "Veridical NDE's' are a subtopic of the NDE. Here is a scholarly paper for you tough science types with real-world examples; Veridical Perception
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
So, how do you know that what they experienced happened at the exact time their line was flat? And not shortly before or after, for instance.

Ciao

- viole

I wasn't there, but those who were around testified about it and i myself observed it.
 

viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
The evidence for it occurring during the flat-line is when they describe the external scene with verifiable facts during the time of no higher brain functioning. "Veridical NDE's' are a subtopic of the NDE. Here is a scholarly paper for you tough science types with real-world examples; Veridical Perception

But how? How do they know that those experiences took place during that time?

Ciao

- viole
 
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