Screw free will!

[laffy_taffy]

[FONT=&quot]I don't understand the whole christian obsession with "free will". It seems like it is an excuse to explain why their god can't do anything. For example, god can't/won't do such and such because it would interfere with our free will. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]As it is now, billions of people who believe in another god or no god at all, will be going to spend an eternity in hell. If god supposedly loved everyone, he would make himself known to the world in whatever ways necessary to convince each individual person of his existence. Then we would have the free will to "choose" whether or not to worship an existing god. Or, he could take away free will altogether and make us all robots for a mere 80 years so that we all can spend an eternity in heaven where we can all have free will.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If god can't/won't make himself known to all in whatever way necessary, then screw free will! Who cares about free will when our eternity is at stake! What I want to know, is why a "benevolent" god would not do this? Why not take away all free will and make everyone robots if need be in order for them to have eternal life. What is a measly 80 years of being a robot compared to an eternity of suffering in hell? I have no need for "instant gratification" when we are talking about eternity. If being a robot for 80 years means it would get me an eternity in heaven, then of course I would be a robot. Heck, a world without death and suffering would be heaven on earth. "Free will" is overrated. 80 years is just a pinpoint compared to eternity. [/FONT]

 

[Gloone]

What if the words get turned around backwards; The Will to be Free. Would you still view it the same way as Free Will or something different?

 

[VenatorAnima]

What if the words get turned around backwards; The Will to be Free.

ohhh that's a good one Gloone!

 

[Erebus]

This is something that always confused me too. Why would a God so determined to have obedient servants give them free will? I've played it over in my head in the past and come up with a few ideas:

1. This God is not the creator God or was at least subject to outside rules when creating humanity.
2. God has one hell of a sadistic streak.
3. God doesn't want servants, but people who love him of their own accord... unfortunately he's also psychotically jealous.
4. There is another God of equal or greater power preventing him from controlling humanity as he wishes.
5. God is insane.

This of course presumes a God who is willing to bestow both free will and eternal paradise/torment to those who accept/reject him. I find this God concept ridiculous, but have less of a problem with those who say that everybody eventually reaches heaven/nobody goes to hell or that God only temporarily punishes evil people. I still don't agree with these concepts, but they're a hell of a lot better than the first one.

 

[bobhikes]

2. God has one hell of a sadistic streak.
3. God doesn't want servants, but people who love him of their own accord... unfortunately he's also psychotically jealous.
4. There is another God of equal or greater power preventing him from controlling humanity as he wishes.
5. God is insane.

This of course presumes a God who is willing to bestow both free will and eternal paradise/torment to those who accept/reject him.

Never quite seen it spelled out this way but I could use the bible to prove out all of the points left in the quote.

So lets say your right 2-5 actually define God to a T. What do you do? This has always been my question. God could be insane by our standards (the bible can be used to prove it)but he could still be the only game in town for the afterlife, what do you do.

 

[Erebus]

So lets say your right 2-5 actually define God to a T. What do you do? This has always been my question. God could be insane by our standards (the bible can be used to prove it)but he could still be the only game in town for the afterlife, what do you do.

It's a scary thought that ultimately reality could be unthinkably terrible and that we have no way of discovering this until after death. I guess if it's true you really just have to hope for the best, that God decides that you and those you love don't have to face eternity in a lake of fire.

 

[Thesavorofpan]

[FONT=&quot]I don't understand the whole christian obsession with "free will". It seems like it is an excuse to explain why their god can't do anything. For example, god can't/won't do such and such because it would interfere with our free will. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]As it is now, billions of people who believe in another god or no god at all, will be going to spend an eternity in hell. If god supposedly loved everyone, he would make himself known to the world in whatever ways necessary to convince each individual person of his existence. Then we would have the free will to "choose" whether or not to worship an existing god. Or, he could take away free will altogether and make us all robots for a mere 80 years so that we all can spend an eternity in heaven where we can all have free will.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If god can't/won't make himself known to all in whatever way necessary, then screw free will! Who cares about free will when our eternity is at stake! What I want to know, is why a "benevolent" god would not do this? Why not take away all free will and make everyone robots if need be in order for them to have eternal life. What is a measly 80 years of being a robot compared to an eternity of suffering in hell? I have no need for "instant gratification" when we are talking about eternity. If being a robot for 80 years means it would get me an eternity in heaven, then of course I would be a robot. Heck, a world without death and suffering would be heaven on earth. "Free will" is overrated. 80 years is just a pinpoint compared to eternity. [/FONT]

He already has robots aka Angels. We were created for the sole purpose of following him by choice. If you took away free will, our whole existence would be pointless.

 

[tarasan]

[FONT=&quot]I don't understand the whole christian obsession with "free will". It seems like it is an excuse to explain why their god can't do anything. For example, god can't/won't do such and such because it would interfere with our free will. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]As it is now, billions of people who believe in another god or no god at all, will be going to spend an eternity in hell. If god supposedly loved everyone, he would make himself known to the world in whatever ways necessary to convince each individual person of his existence. Then we would have the free will to "choose" whether or not to worship an existing god. Or, he could take away free will altogether and make us all robots for a mere 80 years so that we all can spend an eternity in heaven where we can all have free will.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If god can't/won't make himself known to all in whatever way necessary, then screw free will! Who cares about free will when our eternity is at stake! What I want to know, is why a "benevolent" god would not do this? Why not take away all free will and make everyone robots if need be in order for them to have eternal life. What is a measly 80 years of being a robot compared to an eternity of suffering in hell? I have no need for "instant gratification" when we are talking about eternity. If being a robot for 80 years means it would get me an eternity in heaven, then of course I would be a robot. Heck, a world without death and suffering would be heaven on earth. "Free will" is overrated. 80 years is just a pinpoint compared to eternity. [/FONT]

why? wouldnt you just rebel in heaven?

 

[Willamena]

This is something that always confused me too. Why would a God so determined to have obedient servants give them free will?

Um... duh? Without free will there's no "obedience". "To obey" is to make the choice to conform your actions to someone else's will.

 

[Erebus]

He already has robots aka Angels. We were created for the sole purpose of following him by choice. If you took away free will, our whole existence would be pointless.

So would this be a way of God testing himself then? As in, "If I create beings with free will, will they consider me worthy of their devotion?"
I don't know if you meant it that way, but it's a point I could add to my previous list. Having said that though, the eternal hellfire doesn't seem to make sense if this is the case.

 

[Thief]

Well gosh.....

Here in this life, your 'freewill' goes as far as the length of your arm,
whatever you dare to say.....

and whatever you can get away with, and not be caught.

Think it carries that way in the next life?

Or maybe you should have enough self discipline to be trusted.

Blessed is the servant who is found, doing the will of his Lord

 

[Erebus]

Um... duh? Without free will there's no "obedience". "To obey" is to make the choice to conform your actions to someone else's will.

Got to disagree with you here Willamena. Obedience doesn't necessarily imply choice.

 

[PolyHedral]

I don't think free will is a logically coherent concept, since you end up with an elephants-all-the-way-down problem.

For instance, assume that there is some supernatural soul that directs people actions in a way that can't be predicted by physics. How is it making those decisions?

 

[Skwim]

[FONT=&quot]I don't understand the whole christian obsession with "free will". [/FONT]

Without it the concept of sin/salvation doesn't make sense. Of course, there's no such thing as free will, so the idea is dead in the water anyway.

 

[RamaRaksha]

[FONT=&quot]I don't understand the whole christian obsession with "free will". It seems like it is an excuse to explain why their god can't do anything. For example, god can't/won't do such and such because it would interfere with our free will. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]As it is now, billions of people who believe in another god or no god at all, will be going to spend an eternity in hell. If god supposedly loved everyone, he would make himself known to the world in whatever ways necessary to convince each individual person of his existence. Then we would have the free will to "choose" whether or not to worship an existing god. Or, he could take away free will altogether and make us all robots for a mere 80 years so that we all can spend an eternity in heaven where we can all have free will.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If god can't/won't make himself known to all in whatever way necessary, then screw free will! Who cares about free will when our eternity is at stake! What I want to know, is why a "benevolent" god would not do this? Why not take away all free will and make everyone robots if need be in order for them to have eternal life. What is a measly 80 years of being a robot compared to an eternity of suffering in hell? I have no need for "instant gratification" when we are talking about eternity. If being a robot for 80 years means it would get me an eternity in heaven, then of course I would be a robot. Heck, a world without death and suffering would be heaven on earth. "Free will" is overrated. 80 years is just a pinpoint compared to eternity. [/FONT]

This isn't "god" saying it, just some religious people - using threats to convert people. They have no shame in reducing God to a common proselytizer, using him as a conversion tool.

A simple carrot & stick method - convert, get down on your knees, beg for mercy, & it's hawaii for eternity! yay! or else torture for eternity!

By doing so they reduce god to a common despot like saddam - u go before saddam, u get down on ur knees, beg for his mercy and swear loyalty(conversion) & u are rewarded. Speak out against saddam & torture awaits you.

 

[RamaRaksha]

BTW Hinduism doesn't do that. ALL Good souls are welcome in God Rama's arms. Character matters. A Good Atheist is closer to God Rama than even a Good Hindu.

You find threats of hell more akin to king religions - God made in the image of a king. Hinduism, Buddhism are Teacher faiths. Our goal is not a place, but a state of MIND - Moksha - Enlightenment or Knowledge.

Anyone who follows Truth, Knowledge is following in the footsteps of Rama.

How do you make your Teacher proud? By your actions. Begging & wagging your tail before the Teacher is likely to make Her angry, the exact opposite to how a King would react. Kneeling, begging for mercy is strictly PROHIBITED in Hinduism.

 

[Willamena]

Got to disagree with you here Willamena. Obedience doesn't necessarily imply choice.

Then it's not obedience. *shrug*

Disagree we do.

 

[Maimonides]

There is no such thing as freewill.....We have compulsions and influences, these are not independent of our desires. Sure, you can abstain from others, but there are things that you can't abstain from. When it comes to religion freewill is just a theological excuse for God, and moral theology.

 

[tomato1236]

[FONT=&quot]I don't understand the whole christian obsession with "free will". It seems like it is an excuse to explain why their god can't do anything. For example, god can't/won't do such and such because it would interfere with our free will. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]As it is now, billions of people who believe in another god or no god at all, will be going to spend an eternity in hell. If god supposedly loved everyone, he would make himself known to the world in whatever ways necessary to convince each individual person of his existence. Then we would have the free will to "choose" whether or not to worship an existing god. Or, he could take away free will altogether and make us all robots for a mere 80 years so that we all can spend an eternity in heaven where we can all have free will.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]If god can't/won't make himself known to all in whatever way necessary, then screw free will! Who cares about free will when our eternity is at stake! What I want to know, is why a "benevolent" god would not do this? Why not take away all free will and make everyone robots if need be in order for them to have eternal life. What is a measly 80 years of being a robot compared to an eternity of suffering in hell? I have no need for "instant gratification" when we are talking about eternity. If being a robot for 80 years means it would get me an eternity in heaven, then of course I would be a robot. Heck, a world without death and suffering would be heaven on earth. "Free will" is overrated. 80 years is just a pinpoint compared to eternity. [/FONT]

Huh. This sounds terribly familiar.

 

[Wandered Off]

Who cares about free will when our eternity is at stake!

Exactly. If the consequences of making the "wrong" choice are so drastic, it doesn't make sense to leave the whole decision to faith - which is the other side of the same coin as uncertainty. The "gift" of free will seems more like a holy gag gift.

It's kind of like asking you to pick your favorite food when you're five years old and then never letting you eat anything else. At the time, you lacked perspective. Is it a good thing to hold you to that? How much more so is holding us eternally to decisions made in our uncertainty here.

In fact, if you analyze the prophesied results, it begins to look as if free will is a disaster without compare for humanity. The vast majority will meet eternal demise and torment because of it.

Being held in perpetuity to decisions we had to make in the midst of conflicting information, hearsay, and complete lack of proof looks more like a clever trap than a benevolent gift.

Also, it seems backward to grant us free will while simultaneously allowing conflicting 'revelations' and not even letting us know for sure there is a choice to be made, then to yank away free will to change our minds after death, when we have better information. That's just wrong. http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...ates/52078-heaven-hell-gated-communities.html

Obviously, this little rant only applies in the scenario laid out by exclusivist faiths that also accept existence of eternal torment - and if you accept the notion of free will in the first place.