Seasonally, December 25th has already slipped by one month.

[Aupmanyav]

Dur to precession of equinox, seasons preceed by one month every 2,000 years. December 25th was accepted as the date of Jesus' birth in 4th Century. In nearly 2,000 years aince then, it has already slipped seasonally by one month. In a few thousand years (6,000 to be exact), X-mas will still happen on December 25th, but the season will be autumn.

That is the problem with 365-day year and a zodiac calendar. It does not take seasons into consideration.

The old Aryan calendar went according to 'Nakshatras' (asterisms) and there was no slippage of seasons. The Hindu calendar also requires a correction by one month after adoption of the zodiac calendar around 600 CE. We are now in the asterism of Pisces (Revati) and not in Aries (Ashwinis).
Chaitra should not be the beginning of the year, but Phalguna.

"The March equinox is currently located in Pisces, due south of Psc, and, due to precession, slowly drifting due west, just below the western fish towards Aquarius." (In Indian parlance, towards Andromeda, 'Uttara Bhadrapada').

Pisces (constellation) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GoodAttention]

Dur to precession of equinox, seasons preceed by one month every 2,000 years. December 25th was accepted as the date of Jesus' birth in 4th Century. In nearly 2,000 years aince then, it has already slipped seasonally by one month. In a few thousand years (6,000 to be exact), X-mas will still happen on December 25th, but the season will be autumn.

That is the problem with 365-day year and a zodiac calendar. It does not take seasons into consideration.

The old Aryan calendar went according to 'Nakshatras' (asterisms) and there was no slippage of seasons. The Hindu calendar also requires a correction by one month after adoption of the zodiac calendar around 600 CE. We are now in the asterism of Pisces (Revati) and not in Aries (Ashwinis).
Chaitra should not be the beginning of the year, but Phalguna.

"The March equinox is currently located in Pisces, due south of Psc, and, due to precession, slowly drifting due west, just below the western fish towards Aquarius." (In Indian parlance, towards Andromeda, 'Uttara Bhadrapada').

Pisces (constellation) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Some clarification as I’m confused by your use of seasons.

Seasons are experienced around the tropics, and this does not change with the solar 365 calendar. The March and September equinox is also constant globally, meaning equal number of light and dark hours.

Depending on location and culture, spring in the northern hemisphere is generally considered to start March 19 or thereabouts. Winter in the northern hemisphere would be considered to start around the solstice December 23rd. This is close to the last day of sunlight at the North Pole.

So December 25th will always be during winter in the northern hemisphere (where seasons are experienced).

 

[Aupmanyav]

You are correct. What has slipped by is the position of Nakshatras (asterisms) and not the seasons.
My venture in astronomy comes to an end.

 

[GoodAttention]

You are correct. What has slipped by is the position of Nakshatras (asterisms) and not the seasons.
My venture in astronomy comes to an end.

Even calendars can be controversial, just look at India, but traditions will stay true.

Tamil calendar is a solar one, always starting in Chittirai, April 13/14. It only varies by a day. I believe it is calculated 3 days and 3 weeks from the March equinox.

Sanskrit calendar is lunisolar so the days will always vary but is dependent on the moon.

Government in Tamil Nadu attempted to change New Year to month Thai, but the people did not accept this.

 

[mangalavara]

The old Aryan calendar went according to 'Nakshatras' (asterisms) and there was no slippage of seasons.

From what I understand, the 27 nakṣatras in association with the moon were relevant to sacred timing in Vedic ceremonies. This was even before the Aryans formulated a lunisolar calendar with months called Caitra, Vaiśākha, etc. After they noticed that the full moon was in the asterism of Citrā once a year, for example, they eventually called that particular lunar month Caitra. I might be wrong about this.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Government in Tamil Nadu attempted to change New Year to month Thai, but the people did not accept this.

why Thai? That is going back three months. But Tamilnadu government must have had their reasons to suggest that (Karunanidhis birth month? ). Going one month back to Panguni would have aligned it with vernal equinox.

After they noticed that the full moon was in the asterism of Citrā once a year, for example, they eventually called that particular lunar month Caitra. I might be wrong about this.

Before Chaitra, Aryan first months of the year were Phalgun, Magha (recorded in scriptures) and possibly Pousha too.That is going back to more than 6,000 years. Pousha (asterism: Punarvasu, Castor and Pollux) beginning is not recorded, but its deity (Aditi) is mentioned as being the year. The story is that Aditi told Aryans and their Gods where seasons had gone (even gods did not know), sort of established the Aryan calendar.
But I would stop here as we have gone far away from the topic subject.

List of Nakshatras - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

​

Punarvasu - (dual) "the two restorers of goods", also known as yamakau "the two chariots"

Castor and Pollux

Lord: Guru (Jupiter) Symbol : Bow and quiver Deity : Aditi, mother of the gods Indian zodiac: 20° Mithuna - 3°20' Karka Western zodiac 13°46 - 27°06' Cancer

 

[GoodAttention]

why Thai? That is going back three months. But Tamilnadu government must have had their reasons to suggest that (Karunanidhis birth month? ). Going one month back to Panguni would have aligned it with vernal equinox.

My theory is the month thai, spelt the same way as mother, begins 3 days and 3 weeks after the winter solstice. It is the first month where every day in it gets longer than the last.

I was always confused by why a people would celebrate harvest coming out of winter, but then I think they celebrate all they have produced and survive through the winter months.

In any case, I think use this time to fertilise the land and collect seeds to plant in March. My theory is they calculate 90-92 days from Thai month to reach the start of Chittirai, confirming they get the equinox as predicted along the way.

They then plant the new seeds after equinox, such that by Chittirai the seeds have sprouted.

So mother prepares for chitthi (younger aunt) to take over for the next year. Note that she carries the (ai) letter, a symbol of conception.

The seeds sprouting at New Year means she is expecting Chittirai is also the first month where the days are longer than darkness.

Astrology is Aryan and Vedic influence, I am certain before Sankritization they had no interest in the stars or constellations. Tamil calendar has been corrupted but it still makes more sense than the Aryan one, and what is interesting are all the different areas in India that celebrate in April.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Some clarification as I’m confused by your use of seasons.

Seasons are experienced around the tropics, and this does not change with the solar 365 calendar. The March and September equinox is also constant globally, meaning equal number of light and dark hours.

Depending on location and culture, spring in the northern hemisphere is generally considered to start March 19 or thereabouts. Winter in the northern hemisphere would be considered to start around the solstice December 23rd. This is close to the last day of sunlight at the North Pole.

So December 25th will always be during winter in the northern hemisphere (where seasons are experienced).

The equinoxes change too. That was what the OP was talking about. They change at about 50 arc seconds a year. That is not very much. But over two thousand years it does mean that instead of a September 21 equinox there will be a August 21 equinox:

Axial precession - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[GoodAttention]

The equinoxes change too. That was what the OP was talking about. They change at about 50 arc seconds a year. That is not very much. But over two thousand years it does mean that instead of a September 21 equinox there will be a August 21 equinox:

Axial precession - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That is when you consider an equinox from a celestial or night sky reference point.

For humans who live along the tropics, the equinox is defined as the day when daylight is 12 hours. They know they will have 2 a year like clockwork, as well as solstices, hence they are fixed reference points.

Measuring daytime is also more objective and accurate than sighting stars in constellations.

 

[Aupmanyav]

My theory is they calculate 90-92 days from Thai month to reach the start of Chittirai, confirming they get the equinox as predicted along the way.
Note that she carries the (ai) letter, a symbol of conception.

I understand it now. It was an attempt to please the Christians and deride Hinduism, the platform that gets vote for Tamilnadu parties. Things are not done in politics without reason. It would have aligned the Tamil year with Christmas. Sorry that people did not accept it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The equinoxes change too. That was what the OP was talking about. They change at about 50 arc seconds a year. That is not very much. But over two thousand years it does mean that instead of a September 21 equinox there will be a August 21 equinox:

Axial precession - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I was not clear about it. Thanks for your (important) contribution to the discussion.

 

[GoodAttention]

I understand it now. It was an attempt to please the Christians. Things are not done in politics without reason. It would have aligned the Tamil year with Christmas. Sorry that people did not accept it.

Yesterday I did not accept it, but today I have because I understand it. I am also glad Tamil politicians did this, and also glad they didn’t pursue it.

Christians? What nonsense. The Tamil people will learn more about their history soon enough, and I applaud the DMK for encouraging this.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Christians? What nonsense. The Tamil people will learn more about their history soon enough, and I applaud the DMK for encouraging this.

Learn history of make it, that Tamils are Mesopotamians? The utterly corrupt DMK Karunanidhi dynasty is not going to rule Tamilnadu for all times. See what happened to the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty.

 

[GoodAttention]

Learn history of make it that Tamils are Mesopotamians? The utterly corrupt DMK Karunanishi dynasty is not going to rule Tamilnadu for all times. See what happened to the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty.

Tamils celebrate Thai Pongal according to the solar calendar and the winter solstice, and have done so for who knows how long.

At the very least all Tamils should know their calendar and what it is based on. You can argue religion all you want but the Vedic/Hindu calendar is driven by astrology based nonsense and has no relevance to the Tamil people whatsoever.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Tamils celebrate Thai Pongal according to the solar calendar and the winter solstice, and have done so for who knows how long.

At the very least all Tamils should know their calendar and what it is based on. You can argue religion all you want but the Vedic/Hindu calendar is driven by astrology based nonsense and has no relevance to the Tamil people whatsoever.

Harvest festivals in honor of the Sun God. What Tamil Hindus have done traditionally is always welcome. I value traditions (except Jallikattu), otherwise I am a strong atheist. Holi, Diwali also are basically harvest festivals, the stories have been added later.

List of harvest festivals - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

No problem with Tamil calendar. At the last count India had 31 living calendars. Different regions have different calendars. Old Aryan system of changing the beginning month of the year every 2,000 years was very scientific, which took into stride the Axial precession also, though Hindus do not follow it now. Tamil calendar is not the only solar calendar in India, there are others too (Hindu calendar - Wikipedia).
You are not the anointed spokesperson for all Tamils.

 

[GoodAttention]

Harvest festivals in honor of the Sun God. What Tamil Hindus have done traditionally is always welcome. I value traditions (except Jallikattu), otherwise I am a strong atheist. Holi, Diwali also are basically harvest festivals, the stories have been added later.

List of harvest festivals - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thai pongal is very different to Holi and Diwali explicitly by the date that it occurs, being 3 days and 3 weeks after the winter solstice. I have not come across any other culture that does this celebration at that time of year. Holi and Diwali are during harvest months, hence calling them harvest festival makes sense.

Thai pongal is not a harvest festival, but it does honour the trials and tribulations of agriculture by accommodating to certain Hindu dieties.

No problem with Tamil calendar. At the last count India had 31 living calendars. Different regions have different calendars. Old Aryan system of changing the beginning month of the year every 2,000 years was very scientific, which took into stride the Axial precession also, though Hindus do not follow it now. Tamil calendar is not the only solar calendar in India, there are others too (Hindu calendar - Wikipedia).
You are not the anointed spokesperson for all Tamils.

Of course there is no problem with Tamil calendar, because it is defined by purpose and does so accurately.
Any calendar that needs to incorporate Zodiac elements is engaging in astrology and serves zero interest.
The only star that is important in the sun.

You want to talk about calendars? India's National Calendar the Shaka calendar is just a rip-off of the Gregorian calendar, and basically spits in the face of all the Indians who celebrate their new year on April 13/14.

Who needs this calendar? If you are going to make an Indian national calendar why not synchronize it with the other Indians?
Noo. Certain peoples wanted their year to start in Chaitra one month earlier than others!!! It is just the Gregorian calendar that has been Aryanized.

I am not the anoited spokesperson for all Tamils, and everything I am saying someone else will also say one day. I seek no glory, only the removal of what is no longer required.

 

[Heyo]

The equinoxes change too. That was what the OP was talking about. They change at about 50 arc seconds a year. That is not very much. But over two thousand years it does mean that instead of a September 21 equinox there will be a August 21 equinox:

Axial precession - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Interestingly, the Maya knew about precession before we did. We should have adopted their calendar as soon as we found out about it.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You want to talk about calendars? India's National Calendar the Shaka calendar is just a rip-off of the Gregorian calendar, and basically spits in the face of all the Indians who celebrate their new year on April 13/14.
Who needs this calendar?

I am not the anoited spokesperson for all Tamils, and everything I am saying someone else will also say one day. I seek no glory, only the removal of what is no longer required.

That was Nehru's doing. Who goes by it? You are correct, nobody needs it except government of India. Sure, remove what is not necessary.
That is why I am an atheist and have removed all Gods and Goddesses from my belief. Gods, I believe, are absolute falsehood, and therefore, so are prophets, sons, messengers, manifestations and mahdis. There is no evidence for them. None too for rebirth, heaven, hell, judgment, deliverance and everlasting life, with or without houris.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Interestingly, the Maya knew about precession before we did. We should have adopted their calendar as soon as we found out about it.

Aryans also knew it. They changed the beginning of the year by one month every two thousand years. It happened thrice in the past 6,000 years.