Sect versus cult

[IndigoChild5559]

It makes no difference how passionately you believe God exists.

To anyone who either does not or who does not believe the voice in your head is God, it is mere occultism.

when you apply the word occult to everything religious, it becomes a worthless word.

 

[David Young]

I do not apply the word occult to everything religious. Read what I actually wrote.

 

[David Young]

Here is a statement often made by Evangelical and Charismatic Christians:
"No one is won into the Kingdom of Heaven by line of argument."

While someone does not have to belong to a cult or sect to believe this, I would argue that this is an appeal to occult knowledge.

Would anyone like to present an argument that it is not?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Here is a statement often made by Evangelical and Charismatic Christians:
"No one is won into the Kingdom of Heaven by line of argument."

While someone does not have to belong to a cult or sect to believe this, I would argue that this is an appeal to occult knowledge.

Would anyone like to present an argument that it is not?

No, I see no connection between that statement and occult knowledge.

People QUITE OFTEN assign the title of "knowledge" to things not derived by arguments, and I mean like on a daily basis! They feel that something is true. They intuit something is true. They experience that something is true. They perceive that something is true. And sometimes, they are even correct. But none of that has anything to do with "occult knowledge."

By the way, I personally have never met a Christian who made that statement. I'm simply going to trust that you have.

My experience is that many Christians assume their beliefs CAN be logically derived. They invest in apologists like Josh McDowell, author of "Evidence That Demands a Verdict." The truth is, their arguments are chock full of fallacies. I wish they could just be honest and say, "This cannot be proven one way or the other, but I choose to have faith in it anyhow." After all, that is what faith is: accepting as true things that cannot be proven.

 

[David Young]

It's funny that you should mention Josh McDowell. He is precisely the Christian I am quoting in my previous post. It is possible he might have written "Kingdom of God" instead of "Kingdom of Heaven", although I'm reasonably sure it was "Heaven". Which of his books it was from, however, I cannot remember.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

It's funny that you should mention Josh McDowell. He is precisely the Christian I am quoting in my previous post. It is possible he might have written "Kingdom of God" instead of "Kingdom of Heaven", although I'm reasonably sure it was "Heaven". Which of his books it was from, however, I cannot remember.

I think that either one of those two expressions refers to the same thing, the spiritual reign of Jesus/God in their hearts.

I have no idea what the context of McDowell's remark was. I'm not even sure he said it--it could simply be that you are not remembering it correctly. But let's assume for now that he said it. My guess is that he would acknowledge that while rational arguments and evidence can address doubts and provide a foundation for belief, the ultimate decision to embrace faith is also influenced by personal experiences, relationships, and, from a Christian perspective, the work of the Holy Spirit.

Just a reminder that I do not agree with Josh McDowell. I'm simply trying to summarize his view.

 

[David Young]

If I still had my degree notes I would be able to cite the page number itself. I quoted it in an epistemology essay at university in 1994. I can definitely state that it was not 'Kingdom Of The Cults', by the way.

Edit:

Here: Josh McDowell on Defending the Bible
Josh McDowell presents the idea with a slightly different phrasing.
"Second, you can't argue anyone into the kingdom of God."

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If I still had my degree notes I would be able to cite the page number itself. I quoted it in an epistemology essay at university in 1994. I can definitely state that it was not 'Kingdom Of The Cults', by the way.

Edit:

Here: Josh McDowell on Defending the Bible
Josh McDowell presents the idea with a slightly different phrasing.
"Second, you can't argue anyone into the kingdom of God."

Thank you! I appreciate the exact quote. However, the context is still not available to me.

Think about it for a second. If McDowell really believed that it did no good to make rational arguments, it would make no sense for him to write an entire book that is nothing BUT reasoned arguments for Jesus. So while I fully accept your quote as accurate, I'm fairly convinced that context would give it a different spin than you.

 

[David Young]

For the context, click on the link. The entire article is there.

CTRL+F+"argue anyone" if you want to jump to the part in question.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

For the context, click on the link. The entire article is there.

CTRL+F+"argue anyone" if you want to jump to the part in question.

I did click on your link. It did not connect me to the book. It connected to an article about the book. That's not what I need for context. I need to read the page in the book where the quote if from.

This is not a big deal. As I said, you have clearly misunderstood what McDowell meant, because it makes absolutely no sense for him to say there is no worth in providing arguments, and then spend years writing a book that is nothing but arguments. If something makes no sense, it's not true. I think we should move on.