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Secular Humanism

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
My view is based on three assumptions. They're assumptions because I can't demonstrate they're correct without first assuming they are correcf. (I got that idea from Descartes, who noted that if you want to argue that reason is a valid tool, then you can't use reason to justify your argument.)

I assume that ─

A world exists external to the self,​
My senses are capable of informing me of that world, and​
Reason is a valid tool.​

I find justification for making these assumptions in various ways, one of which is that I haven't met anyone who doesn't share them (sometimes while asserting they don't share them). Anyone who posts on RF, for example, demonstrates that they also share the first two assumptions, and anyone who wants to present an orderly and relevant argument demonstrates at a basic level their accord with the third,

On the basis of my education and experience, I take reality to be the world external to the self, which we know about through our senses. It shows no sign of being a living entity. And it remains the case that no objective test can distinguish the supernatural from the imaginary.

There is no reason to think that a purposeful and intelligent being brought the universe into being. No religion offers a useful 'how' in their stories of the creation of the universe ─ indeed they're not even looking, Only science is looking.

But there are other ways of knowing things other than by science and reasoning. Admiration of Sophocles, Dante, Shakespeare, Heaney, doesn't have to be organized into an essay to be something you have, and know you have ─ though of course you can, and likely will, apply reasoned arguments in support of what you already know without them. Falling in love has many parallels, and the fact that when one falls in love, one's responding to the body's hormones, and that those responses have evolved under the imperatives of evolution, surviving long enough to breed, may feel entirely irrelevant. As all living things act out, you don't have to know why, you just have to do.


I don’t think I share your view about the world external to the self, and would argue there are a multitude of philosophical and theological perspectives which don’t either.

Simply put, as a philosophical Monist, I consider the self to be integral to the world, and the distinction between the one and the other to be an illusory function of subjective perspective. Though we probably mean something entirely different by the word ‘self’.

I know you are rather entrenched in your view of the relationship between the self and the world external to it, and have trouble thinking outside of the trench, as it were. But it’s not that radical, what I am proposing; that we are in the world and the world is in us, and that our perception of the universe is predicated on the illusion of otherness, separation, etc.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Despite millions of people searching, nobody in the history of mankind has ever found any empirical evidence of anything existing outside the material /natural world. Now for me, that is sufficient evidence, though I doubt that would be sufficient for you, that's why I ask what type of evidence YOU would find convincing.


It is self evident that nobody in the history of mankind has ever found any evidence of anything at all existing outside the realm of consciousness. And yet presumably, you believe that it does?
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Many things which are “plainly clear and obvious” have been found to be illusory. For example, it’s plainly clear and obvious that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west; only we know this to be a false perception. On the other hand, it is far from plainly clear and obvious that a prosaic steel girder is really a whirling mass of sub atomic particles which are themselves, upon examination, not particles at all, but rather fluctuations in the energy of the vacuum.

In other words, it is always necessary to look beyond the surface of what is “plainly clear and obvious”, to arrive at an understanding of what is going all around us (and within us).
We know it's plain and obvious with the sun because we have these things called equinoxes. It's not illusionary because this fact occurs two times annually one in the spring and the other in the fall.

You need a better example.
 

Mock Turtle

Oh my, did I say that!
Premium Member
If you are a secular humanist, I am interested to see you defend your positions, specifically
Can't claim to be wholly onside but certainly secular and this more closely describes my 'worldview' if I actually have one.
1. That the natural world is all that exists
How would I know? - so a no to this.
2. That the universe is self existing (needs no creation by a deity)
A possibility - but again, how would I know? So, more agnostic atheist than purely atheist.
3. That the only way to know things is through science and reasoning
Well, since we do exist in a physical form and would have very short lives without that which science has brought, I have to subscribe to science and reasoning as having pre-eminent importance, but I wouldn't necessarily disregard any other possibilities of knowing. But perhaps would disregard the many that spring to mind that seem just too erroneous - and most likely coming from creative human minds - given that we seem to have an infinite capacity to be wrong and as to deceiving ourselves.
 
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RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
We know it's plain and obvious with the sun because we have these things called equinoxes. It's not illusionary because this fact occurs two times annually one in the spring and the other in the fall.

You need a better example.


For most of human history, it was universally accepted that the sun moved round the earth. And this was confirmed, daily, by observation. It took a lot more than equinoxes to confirm the heliocentric model of the solar system.
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
For most of human history, it was universally accepted that the sun moved round the earth. And this was confirmed, daily, by observation. It took a lot more than equinoxes to prove the heliocentric model.
Which is why the matter needs to be approached scientifically but dosent discount the facts already discovered and confirmed.
 

PureX

Veteran Member
To be a worldview, something has to have the following three things:
1. An ontology, which means an understanding of what is the nature of reality. For example, some people (we call them naturalists) believe that the world is made up of only physical stuff. Others believe the world is made up of a combination of both physical stuff and spiritual stuff (dualism). A third group believes that only spiritual stuff is really really real, that the physical stuff is an illusion (immaterialism).

2. An epistimology, meaning how we can know things. So for example, can we learn things only through reason and scientific method, or can we also learn things from a divinely revealed text?

3. An axiology, or values. What is good and what is bad, right and wrong.

Secular humanism, the world view held by many (though not all) Atheists holds to naturalism, allies itself with logic and science, and wants to make the world a better place.

If you are a secular humanist, I am interested to see you defend your positions, specifically
1. That the natural world is all that exists
2. That the universe is self existing (needs no creation by a deity)
3. That the only way to know things is through science and reasoning


I'm not going to include the axiology question, because generally speaking, there isn't a whole lot of difference between what atheists think and what theists think. For example, both want to help those in need and refrain from harming others.

That's not correct. Atheism is not a world view.
And yet, there is is, spelled out in the OP. A worldview complete with ontology, epistemology, and axiology. Just mislabeled as "secular humanism".
 
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TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
And yet, there is is, spelled out in the OP. A worldview complete with ontology, epistemology, and axiology. Just mislabeled as "secular humanism".
What that means is that secular humanism is the worldview.
And as per your own acknowledgement, atheists aren't necessarily secular humanists.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
And yet, there is is, spelled out in the OP. A worldview complete with ontology, epistemology, and axiology. Just mislabeled as "secular humanism".
It's a description and a rather poor one at that.

Professor Dawkins does a much better job in his book, "The God Delusion".
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Atheism is a 'worldview'

Wrong, again.
Atheism is "disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods."
Nothing more, nothing less. Anything you want to add to that is simply your own misrepresentation.

And is based on held but unproven beliefs abut truth and reality just as theism is.

Again you are wrong atheism is based on complete, 100% lack of evidence for any gods existing
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Richard Dawkins is to atheism what Tucker Carlson is to 'news'.

Dawkins, by his own words is not atheist but agnostic.


And it seems that only theists think atheists admire him. Most atheists i know just wish he'd get on with his job.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Again you are wrong atheism is based on complete, 100% lack of evidence for any gods existing
Not even that.

It's just disbelief of god claims, that's it. There's no implying of any possible or potential reasons or motivations for that disbelief inherent in the label "atheist".

People always try to make so much of that silly word. Really, the label shouldn't even exist.
It's like having a word for people who don't play soccer or who don't like star trek or who don't believe in voodoo.

It's completely meaningless.
 
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