Seeking any information about a historical Essene sect called the Notzrim

[Coder]

Is an Essene sect called the Notzrim, factual?

Was Nazareth as a place, originally a myth based on the Jewish Notzrim?

Was Jesus called Yeshu Ha Noztri?

 

[Wandering Monk]

Nazareth was a miniscule village about 4 miles from Sephorris in Galilee in the first century.

Notzrim (נוֹצְרִי) is a modern Hebrew word that means "Christians" or "Nazarenes". It is a Talmudic term that comes from the fact that Jesus came from Nazareth, a Galilean village in northern Israel. Notzrim is also one of two words used in Syriac and Arabic to mean "Christian". In Syriac, the word is Nasrani, and in Arabic, it is Naṣrānī (نصراني).

 

[Coder]

Thank you! Do you know if the Notzrim was a sect and possibly an Essene sect? I also am interested in the Essenes e.g. if they were among the first groups that followed Jesus.

 

[Maninthemiddle]

The term "Notzrim" is a Hebrew word that historically has been used to refer to Christians. In its original usage, "Notzrim" was a designation for the followers of Jesus of Nazareth, a name derived from the town of Nazareth, where Jesus is believed to have grown up. The term "Notzrim" is rooted in the Hebrew word "Netzer," meaning "branch," and is linguistically linked to the concept of Jesus as the Messiah or "Branch" in Jewish and Christian traditions.

Throughout history, "Notzrim" has been used in various contexts to denote Christians and their belief system. It can be found in historical, religious, and cultural records that record interactions between Christian communities and other societies.

 

[Coder]

The term "Notzrim" is a Hebrew word that historically has been used to refer to Christians. In its original usage, "Notzrim" was a designation for the followers of Jesus of Nazareth, a name derived from the town of Nazareth, where Jesus is believed to have grown up. The term "Notzrim" is rooted in the Hebrew word "Netzer," meaning "branch," and is linguistically linked to the concept of Jesus as the Messiah or "Branch" in Jewish and Christian traditions.

Throughout history, "Notzrim" has been used in various contexts to denote Christians and their belief system. It can be found in historical, religious, and cultural records that record interactions between Christian communities and other societies.

Thank you kindly.

If "Netzer" has a theological meaning, then perhaps the town of Nazareth is not real? I.e. How would a town already have a theological name before Jesus?

 

[Spice]

Thank you! Do you know if the Notzrim was a sect and possibly an Essene sect? I also am interested in the Essenes e.g. if they were among the first groups that followed Jesus.

It is said that John the Baptist was Essene. It is my belief that though Jesus was Pharisee, he was greatly influenced by cousin John and was initially a follower of his, only branching out after his baptism.

Matt 3:1,4-7
1In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea,

4Now John wore a garment of camel’s hair and a leather belt around his waist, and his food was locusts and wild honey. 5Then Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan were going out to him, 6and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

 

[Coder]

Thank you. Yes, this is a fascinating discussion. To me it contrasts what I consider to be the more authentic early Jewish-influenced Scriptures about Jesus in contrast to the later Greco-Roman influenced passages, that I believe were intended to present Jesus as a human figure who is also an "image" of God:

In the Roman Empire, there were many gods and and sons of gods, both among the Greco-Roman pagan religions as well as the emperors who were ascribed "divinity" and "divi filius", "son of a god". For the needs of unified religion in the Roman Empire ("all things to all people"), Jesus was used as a human-like ‘god’ figure to help a huge population of Greco-Roman pagans convert to Jewish monotheism. The pagans believed in human-like gods. By using a human-like form (Jesus) as an image of the true God, the pagans could transfer their thinking from the pagan gods to the true God. It's a parable. This should not be surprising. In the Roman Church we see a pattern of substitution of a pagan artifact of worship for a Christian one. It's a simple swap out. We see this in holidays, prayer, statues, and many other aspects. So the substitution of a human-like image of God, in place of human-like pagan god figure, for adaptation to monotheism, is a normal part of the pattern.

 

[Maninthemiddle]

Thank you kindly.

If "Netzer" has a theological meaning, then perhaps the town of Nazareth is not real? I.e. How would a town already have a theological name before Jesus?

The term "Netzer" indeed has theological significance, as it is associated with messianic symbolism in Jewish and Christian traditions.

 

[Coder]

Perhaps unlikely, and also perhaps unknown, but does a Jewish congregation of students of Jesus exist today, that is from an original congregation of the Jewish followers of Jesus?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Perhaps unlikely, and also perhaps unknown, but does a Jewish congregation of students of Jesus exist today, that is from an original congregation of the Jewish followers of Jesus?

And perhaps the Daoine Sidhe are a secret guild of Irish disciples of John the Baptist.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

The term "Netzer" indeed has theological significance, as it is associated with messianic symbolism in Jewish and Christian traditions.

Out of curiosity, upon what is your understanding of Jewish traditions "indeed" based?

 

[I Am Hugh]

Nazarenes?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Nazarenes?

Was that an answer to anyone or anything in particular?

 

[John D. Brey]

Out of curiosity, upon what is your understanding of Jewish traditions "indeed" based?

I might be going out on a limb, no pun intended, but the Jewish tradition @Maninthemiddle seems to be addressing might be based on Zechariah 6:12-13:

And speak unto him, saying, Thus speaketh the Lord of hosts, saying, Behold the man whose name is The Branch; And he shall grow up out of his place.​

When Zechariah says this Branch shall grow up out of his place, he (Zechariah), seems to have Isaiah 11:10 in mind:

And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, And a Branch shall grow out of his [Jesse's] roots.​

Redak points out that this growing out of Jesse's roots speaks of a basal-shoot growing out of the root of a tree apart from the natural sexual propagation that otherwise occurs. According to Redak, the "Branch" growing out of the roots of the patrilineal tree of Jesse is going to be born asexually, say from a virgin pregnancy that's conceived in a young daughter of Jesse (virgin birth if you will, and of course you won't).

I think @Maninthemiddle's point is the irony that a would-be messianic personage said to be born of a virgin (out of a root of patrilineage rather than from the fruit, semen, of patrilinage) also happens to be called by a Hebrew word for "branch" (netzer) in no less than the Talmud (Jesus the Branch, Yeshua the Notzrim) .



John

 

[Maninthemiddle]

Out of curiosity, upon what is your understanding of Jewish traditions "indeed" based?

If the knowledge is accurate what does it matter where my understanding of Jewish traditions came from.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

If the knowledge is accurate what does it matter where my understanding of Jewish traditions came from.

True ...

 

[Coder]

The information about netzer and noztrim is helpful and thanks kindly! I will keep these in mind as I pursue (or we can pursue):

1. Seeking evidence outside of Christian Scriptures for a religious movement among Jewish people that Paul worked with...
   
   
2. ...Or was Christianity a product of the quest for common ground among religions per standard Roman procedure? I.e. Was even the early Jewish movement of a claimed Messiah fabricated by the Romans, thinking that a messiah movement would settle the Jewish people?

Is the entire religion mainly a Roman invention?

"The Romans looked for common ground between their major gods and those of the Greeks..."

"As the Romans extended their dominance throughout the Mediterranean world, their policy in general was to absorb the deities and cults of other peoples..."

Religion in ancient Rome - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Is an Essene sect called the Notzrim, factual?

Was Nazareth as a place, originally a myth based on the Jewish Notzrim?

Was Jesus called Yeshu Ha Noztri?

No, the Essenes and that Nazarenes aka Notzrim, are two very different groups.

Yes, Nazareth is an actual city that is till around today. When Jesus is called a Nazarene, it is referring to that he grew up in the city of Nazareth. The Hebrew word for this city is "נַצְרֵת" (Natzrat)

However, the religious sect that we called the Nazarenes are not called this because if any connection to the city of Nazareth. The root of the word is "natzar" (נצר), which means "to watch," "to guard," or "to keep." This would imply that "Notzrim" originally meant "those who watch" or "those who keep." Now, what were they watching? That is lost in history.

The Notzrim were those Jewish believers in Jesus who continued to practice Judaism. The leader of their sect was James the brother of Jesus. They continued to follow Jewish law, including giving sacrifices in the Temple.

An Essene wouldn't be caught dead in the Temple. The Essenes had rebelled against the whole sacrificial system, and literally went off into the wilderness so that they would not be contaminated by what they believed was corruption. Their hallmark is their obsession with ritual purity. Can I say for certain that no Essene ever came to believe in Jesus? No, I'm not making that claim. But the movement as a whole had nothing to do with Jesus.