Seers -- Augurs or Stoners?

[DontWorryBeHappy]

Many times in religious texts, specifically the Bible, seers were consulted to recieve messages from God. They often went into deep trances to search for these messages.

The proposed question is: Were these people truly able to communicate with God? There are many drugs, known and unknown, that can cause euphoria and hallucinations. Were these "mediums" no more than drug users who claimed they had visions of God and the future? Please share your thoughts and beliefs.

 

[Feathers in Hair]

I don't know if seers are truly able to communicate with god, but I and a number of others on the forums use meditation, sacred drumming and other forms of divinitory methods in order to gain 'visions'. Drugs are not necessary to the process and I imagine they would even hinder it.

 

[Comet]

There are many drugs like Ayahausca that people use to obtain a connection with such things in a religious context. Some Hindus use yoga, Buddhists meditation, etc... It depends on what it is you believe. Some need breathing, some meditation, some NATURAL drugs.

Isn't it about the expirience and not the method?

 

[Katzpur]

Many times in religious texts, specifically the Bible, seers were consulted to recieve messages from God. They often went into deep trances to search for these messages.

The proposed question is: Were these people truly able to communicate with God? There are many drugs, known and unknown, that can cause euphoria and hallucinations. Were these "mediums" no more than drug users who claimed they had visions of God and the future? Please share your thoughts and beliefs.

The President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (currently Gordon B. Hinckley) has a title, "Prophet, Seer and Revelator." We Latter-day Saints believe that He was personally chosen by God to receive revelation of behalf of His Church in this day and age. Once, several years ago, President Hinckley was asked by a journalist (Mike Wallace or Larry King, if I recall) if he really did communicate directly with God and how this actually worked. In responding, he quoted from 1 Kings 19:11-12, which says:

"...And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake: And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice."

It is my understanding that the Lord generally reveals His will to our prophet, not out of the blue, but in response to a prayer asking for guidance. I couldn't really tell you anything more about it, except to say that there definitely aren't any drugs involved.

 

[Mike182]

I don't know if seers are truly able to communicate with god, but I and a number of others on the forums use meditation, sacred drumming and other forms of divinitory methods in order to gain 'visions'. Drugs are not necessary to the process and I imagine they would even hinder it.

some in the past have advocated newbies using drugs to induce heavy trance states so that they can experience what they are aiming for, in order to achieve it in the future without the aid of drugs. depending on how you want to classify "drugs", i know a lot of people today in the occult who advocate alcohol for inducing trance.

Crowley especially advocated drugs for religious purposes, i'm sure there are others but i only know him as an example in detail...

 

[Katzpur]

some in the past have advocated newbies using drugs to induce heavy trance states so that they can experience what they are aiming for, in order to achieve it in the future without the aid of drugs. depending on how you want to classify "drugs", i know a lot of people today in the occult who advocate alcohol for inducing trance.

It seems to me that, if God had anything very important to say, He would prefer talk to somebody who was sober.

 

[Mike182]

It seems to me that, if God had anything very important to say, He would prefer talk to somebody who was sober.

good job most of us don't drink till we're falling over then

 

[Comet]

Crowley especially advocated drugs for religious purposes, i'm sure there are others but i only know him as an example in detail...

Some shamans in Africa use Elboga, some shamans in South America use Ayahuasca, etc... There is a church in New Mexico that uses drugs and the US government legalized their use Eboka/Elboga because it is their religious sacrament. I believe it is a branch of the Bwiti faith. There are plenty of examples out there.

 

[Mike182]

Some shamans in Africa use Elboga, some shamans in South America use Ayahuasca, etc... There is a church in New Mexico that uses drugs and the US government legalized their use Eboka/Elboga because it is their religious sacrament. I believe it is a branch of the Bwiti faith. There are plenty of examples out there.

thanks Comet! i know there are a lot of examples out there, but due to my lack of knowledge on the subject, i didn't want to throw any out there that i wasn't sure of.

 

[Comet]

thanks Comet! i know there are a lot of examples out there, but due to my lack of knowledge on the subject, i didn't want to throw any out there that i wasn't sure of.

Anytime... I don't know much, but I do know a few things....

 

[Feathers in Hair]

It's true that some do use substances outside their own chemistry to achieve a trance like state, but there are many that don't. I'm not saying that I consider the former to be any more or less worthwhile than my own methods- just that everyone has a different way of approaching things.

 

[Comet]

It's true that some do use substances outside their own chemistry to achieve a trance like state, but there are many that don't. I'm not saying that I consider the former to be any more or less worthwhile than my own methods- just that everyone has a different way of approaching things.

As I asked before:

"Isn't it about the method and not the result?"

 

[Feathers in Hair]

As I asked before:

"Isn't it about the method and not the result?"

Well, maybe it is. I guess that's what the OP was asking, and I just got side-tracked.
If it's about the method, then, I would put forth that people are able to achieve trance like states without the use of drugs and that claiming that anyone who proposes that they are able to communicate with 'higher beings' are stoners is a blanket statement and an inaccurate one at that.

 

[Comet]

If it's about the method, then, I would put forth that people are able to achieve trance like states without the use of drugs and that claiming that anyone who proposes that they are able to communicate with 'higher beings' are stoners is a blanket statement and an inaccurate one at that.

I agree 100%

It's true that some do use substances outside their own chemistry to achieve a trance like state,

Some use substances that are naturally produced within the body, it just takes a higher level to attain such a state. DMT is an example of this and would again go back to some Shamans.

 

[Mike182]

I agree 100%



Some use substances that are naturally produced within the body, it just takes a higher level to attain such a state. DMT is an example of this and would again go back to some Shamans.

i could be mistaken, but aren't minute traces of LSD found naturally in the body?

 

[Heracles]

Many times in religious texts, specifically the Bible, seers were consulted to recieve messages from God. They often went into deep trances to search for these messages.

The proposed question is: Were these people truly able to communicate with God? There are many drugs, known and unknown, that can cause euphoria and hallucinations. Were these "mediums" no more than drug users who claimed they had visions of God and the future? Please share your thoughts and beliefs.

Most times, shamans who use these plants, fungii or concoctions aren't trying to communicate with God per se but the spirit world and it's inhabitants. They can be used to speak with the dead, with higher powers like a God or Goddess, with evil, beneficial, protective spirits or with what are called "Allies". Sometimes these shamans will use meditation, dancing, drumming, spinning, and starvation/dehydration instead or along with drugs. If you (or anyone else on here) want a really good education in this kind of stuff, I suggest you read pretty much anything by Carlos Castenada(I think I spelled that right). He was an anthropologist who spent years as an apprentice to a Yaqui shaman/sorceror named Don Juan.

Oh and the drugs usually used for these "trips" or "visions" include(these are the ones I can think of); Alcohol,Cannabis(including Hash or hash oil), Psilocybin(magic mushrooms), Salvia, Datura root, mescalin(from peyote cactii), ayahuasca,DMT, AMT, DOM and LSD. Pretty much all of the acronyms were synthetically produced but are based on naturally occuring substances. The other ones are traditional plants or concoctions that have been used for thousands of years for divination and visions. I guess the question still remains though, are the users of these drugs delving into the spirit world or the subconcious mind? How do we go about proving something like that?

 

[astarath]

One can not see God but rather his messages through visions. Through focused prayer and meditation this is possible indeed especially if you have dedicated your whole life to servitude and devotion to listening for the messages of God

 

[Comet]

i could be mistaken, but aren't minute traces of LSD found naturally in the body?

Tyrptamines are found naturally in the body in the form of DMT- di-methyl-tryptamine. LSD is in the tryptamine family, but is not naturally found in our bodies from what I know.... it is manufactured artificially.

They are related to serotonin.... DMT, eloba (elbogaine), LSD, psilocybin, psilocin, and 5-methoxy-DMT are all related to serotonin. They are all of the tryptomine family. Dmt is the naturally found one as it is one of the simpliest tryptamines, and only an oxygen molecule short of being serotonin. LSD has an extra Nirtogen molecule on top of the Oxygen molecule that serotonin has. LSD is not made by the body, DMT is. If that helps, but very good question as they are all CLOSELY related.

Most times, shamans who use these plants, fungii or concoctions aren't trying to communicate with God per se but the spirit world and it's inhabitants. They can be used to speak with the dead, with higher powers like a God or Goddess, with evil, beneficial, protective spirits or with what are called "Allies". Sometimes these shamans will use meditation, dancing, drumming, spinning, and starvation/dehydration instead or along with drugs. If you (or anyone else on here) want a really good education in this kind of stuff, I suggest you read pretty much anything by Carlos Castenada(I think I spelled that right). He was an anthropologist who spent years as an apprentice to a Yaqui shaman/sorceror named Don Juan.

I agree, good info in those books. Yet, to see the ways of GOD (per se) in a new light; one must achieve such a state in this life.... regardless of what method it is by.

 

[Flappycat]

I don't know if seers are truly able to communicate with god, but I and a number of others on the forums use meditation, sacred drumming and other forms of divinitory methods in order to gain 'visions'. Drugs are not necessary to the process and I imagine they would even hinder it.

You've never tried opium, then. That stuff is da bomb. Okay, I've never tried it, either, but what leads you to believe that drugs would hinder meditation? Many of them are acting on receptors that are activated naturally during such states of mind, anyway.

 

[Comet]

You've never tried opium, then. That stuff is da bomb. Okay, I've never tried it, either, but what leads you to believe that drugs would hinder meditation? Many of them are acting on receptors that are activated naturally during such states of mind, anyway.

Many are, many aren't. Yet, things like: Yoga, chanting, drumming, meditating also have effects on the body. One is a way of thought or doing, one is a way of enhancing the chemicals/processes naturally found in your body, and one is a way of altering your natural physiology. I guess all can be used to alter your state of mind though.

I think (I guess as I haven't done them all) any of them could lead to a state in which one could "see" or "communicate" with that not normally seen or comunicated with. To each their own, if it achieves the state of awareness of things that one desires. I guess in the long run, it doesn't matter how you "see" or talk to that beyond our "normal" state.

I guess I'd just reiterate that "SEERS" are not junkies by any means, though they MAY use drugs to achieve/use their ability or they may do so without drugs. It depends on the person.