Self deception. What is the evolutionary advantage of self deception.?

[David T]

I stumbled across an article singing the praises of freud for catholics in the Catholic reporter.

We’ve nothing to fear from Freud | CatholicHerald.co.uk

It caused me to wonder what advantage self deception has in Evolutionary terms. I also wondered, why does it even exist? It's a quality that won't show up in formal science itself in observational science of nature. There is not a self deception particle in particle physics. We would not find a self deception fossil in the fossil records. So self deception itself while factual, at the same time does not literally exist in traditional measurable ways. It only exists for us in casual ways. Are trees self deceived? In antiquity self deception was personified or clothed. Today It seems everyone believes they are immune and everyone else is infected. Strange world indeed.

Our life always expresses the result of our dominant thoughts.
Soren kierkegaard

 

[Revoltingest]

I've long pondered this. Starting with the premise that all human traits serve some evolutionary
advantage, self deception must be useful. Let's consider humans facing some problem with
multiple solutions, eg, explore outside of familiar ground, or stay where it's safe & reliable.
Which ever path is chosen, supreme confidence in one's choice serves survival.
Old Henry Ford quote....
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're right."

Of course, doubt, fear & continual questioning also serve us. This explains why we have a
mixture of predilections. The environment sorts out winners & losers, but still genetically
preserves this diversity of approaches. Society is doomed to have a mix of believers &
non-believers, eh. Tis best to just get along with each other.

 

[Jumi]

Self-deception is also imagination and part of our empathy. Without it we'd have trouble forming larger units like nations.

 

[Windwalker]

I stumbled across an article singing the praises of freud for catholics in the Catholic reporter.

We’ve nothing to fear from Freud | CatholicHerald.co.uk

It caused me to wonder what advantage self deception has in Evolutionary terms. I also wondered, why does it even exist? It's a quality that won't show up in formal science itself in observational science of nature. There is not a self deception particle in particle physics. We would not find a self deception fossil in the fossil records. So self deception itself while factual, at the same time does not literally exist in traditional measurable ways. It only exists for us in casual ways. Are trees self deceived? In antiquity self deception was personified or clothed. Today It seems everyone believes they are immune and everyone else is infected. Strange world indeed.

Our life always expresses the result of our dominant thoughts.
Soren kierkegaard

This is wonderful. A good question. First, don't try to understand it as functioning at the more simplistic levels of existence, such as trees. It would only emerge as part of the mental domains. What part of the mental domain it would be part of, and what evolutionary function might it hold is the next question.

It would have to with multiple things, the most basic of which is a survival instinct, to preserve what give you security and provides for you. Our belief structures give us just those things. When something comes along to upset that structure, it is perceived instinctually as a threat. Denial is like a fight or flight response. The energy to readjust one's belief structures is substantial. You feel vulnerable without them until that occurs.

Then there is the whole safety in numbers thing. When you are part of a social group, and they all think a certain way, to not think the same puts you at risk from alienation. So conformity of beliefs, is in fact evolutionarily advantageous. So you could say that Denial, as a defense mechanism keeps you safe by not just straying too far from your base which you need to survive.

Historically, to be outside the group, usually meant your own death. Shunning, was and is very much a death sentence. So keeping your mouth shut, not thinking too far astray, is an act of self-preservation. Denial is based in fear, and a fear that feels like a death sentence in many ways.

 

[Sanzbir]

Well survival is requisite on the ability to make snap-decisions, not always correct, in the face of potential danger.

Let's take an ancient tribe which holds the belief "All tigers are dangerous monsters who want to kill us, they are pure evil and harbor no emotion except malice towards mankind".

We'll take two individuals, Tribesman A, who has no skill at self-deception, and Tribesman B, who has skill at self-deception.

Both Tribesman A and B, while hunting, independently stumble across an abnormally docile tiger. Perhaps this tiger fed recently, saw no threat in the humans, and thus no need to react in an aggressive manner towards the humans.

Tribesman A's beliefs are challenged. Maybe not all tigers wanted to kill humans at all times!! Maybe tigers weren't motivated by malicious intent towards humans!! Based on the fact he has observed a docile tiger, he has learned correctly that not all tigers pose a threat to humans, and tigers are not motivated by a desire to murder humans.

Tribesman B's beliefs are likewise challenged, but he uses self-deception to cling to his long-standing beliefs that tigers are literally evil beings who have no motivation other than an innate desire to murder human beings. Using self-deception, he convinces himself that the "docile" tiger was just trying to trick him into letting his guard down, so the tiger could eat him. Tribesman B killed the docile tiger because he thought it was evil and trying to trick him.

The next day both Tribesman A and B go out hunting again in different areas. Both come across a different tiger.

Tribesman B, who has deceived himself into believing tigers are all inherently malignant and evil beings, immediately stabs and kills his tiger.

Tribesman A, on the other hand, lets his guard down, wondering if this tiger is another docile tiger who is not a threat. This particular tiger, however, was not, and Tribesman A was promptly eaten.

That's just one instance I can think of where the ability to self-deceive oneself into believing an incorrect belief (the inherent evil and malice of all tigers) which results in a higher rate of survival and reproduction.

 

[Nakosis]

I stumbled across an article singing the praises of freud for catholics in the Catholic reporter.

We’ve nothing to fear from Freud | CatholicHerald.co.uk

It caused me to wonder what advantage self deception has in Evolutionary terms. I also wondered, why does it even exist? It's a quality that won't show up in formal science itself in observational science of nature. There is not a self deception particle in particle physics. We would not find a self deception fossil in the fossil records. So self deception itself while factual, at the same time does not literally exist in traditional measurable ways. It only exists for us in casual ways. Are trees self deceived? In antiquity self deception was personified or clothed. Today It seems everyone believes they are immune and everyone else is infected. Strange world indeed.

Our life always expresses the result of our dominant thoughts.
Soren kierkegaard

Cook: You write that more intelligent children tend to be more deceptive—can you explain this?
Trivers: The experiment was simplicity itself. A child is asked to sit facing away from a box. The experimenter puts something in the box and says “Do not peek, do not peek” and then leaves the room. Most children peek. The experimenter returns and asks, “Did you peek?” Most children lie—but they do so the more frequently the brighter they are, as judged by a simple cognitive test. If your child is especially bright, he or she lies 100 percent of the time, slow 65 percent of the time. The same thing is true for health at birth. The healthier you are the more apt you are to lie 4 years later.

Cook: Right, the advantages of deception seem quite obvious, but what advantage could there possibly be to self-deception—to lying to yourself.
Trivers: This is the key problem that captured me in the 1970’s. I realized that if self-deception made it easier to deceive others, then it could confer an advantage. After all, deception only succeeds when undetected. Otherwise it may have most unfortunate consequences. So I imagined that self-deception easily evolved in the service of deceit—all kinds of improbably organized information to the conscious mind in order the better to fool others.

The Hidden Logic of Deception

Deception is a useful tool ask any actor or politician. Folks tend to hide behind a false narrative of themselves that is created to present themselves as a socially acceptable individual. Where the truth can be far different. The better you can believe in this persona of a moral person the easier it is to fool society. Confidence instills belief in others. A belief in my own confidence has caused others to follow my lead. Even though after the fact, upon self reflection, that confidence was sorely misplaced.

Confidence has served Trump for example to the point that the truth has become irrelevant.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

It is probably much the same as political self deception.
most vote for selfish reasons and expect them to be delivered
they never are.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It caused me to wonder what advantage self deception has in Evolutionary terms. I also wondered, why does it even exist?

In a properly functioning mind, self-deception is the side effect of a number of advantages:

- we need to "decide" what to remember
- we need to act fast
- we need to cope with having too much information for our decision making
- we need to cope with not having enough information - or not meaningful enough information - to make our decisions

Cognitive Bias codex 2016 • r/RationalPsychonaut

 

[David T]

In a properly functioning mind, self-deception is the side effect of a number of advantages:

- we need to "decide" what to remember
- we need to act fast
- we need to cope with having too much information for our decision making
- we need to cope with not having enough information - or not meaningful enough information - to make our decisions

Cognitive Bias codex 2016 • r/RationalPsychonaut

So you are saying that self deception is a good normal healthy way of understanding anything and everything?

 

[David T]

Cook: You write that more intelligent children tend to be more deceptive—can you explain this?
Trivers: The experiment was simplicity itself. A child is asked to sit facing away from a box. The experimenter puts something in the box and says “Do not peek, do not peek” and then leaves the room. Most children peek. The experimenter returns and asks, “Did you peek?” Most children lie—but they do so the more frequently the brighter they are, as judged by a simple cognitive test. If your child is especially bright, he or she lies 100 percent of the time, slow 65 percent of the time. The same thing is true for health at birth. The healthier you are the more apt you are to lie 4 years later.

Cook: Right, the advantages of deception seem quite obvious, but what advantage could there possibly be to self-deception—to lying to yourself.
Trivers: This is the key problem that captured me in the 1970’s. I realized that if self-deception made it easier to deceive others, then it could confer an advantage. After all, deception only succeeds when undetected. Otherwise it may have most unfortunate consequences. So I imagined that self-deception easily evolved in the service of deceit—all kinds of improbably organized information to the conscious mind in order the better to fool others.

The Hidden Logic of Deception

Deception is a useful tool ask any actor or politician. Folks tend to hide behind a false narrative of themselves that is created to present themselves as a socially acceptable individual. Where the truth can be far different. The better you can believe in this persona of a moral person the easier it is to fool society. Confidence instills belief in others. A belief in my own confidence has caused others to follow my lead. Even though after the fact, upon self reflection, that confidence was sorely misplaced.

Confidence has served Trump for example to the point that the truth has become irrelevant.

Is that self deception? Maybe if it's sincere I suppose I see that as true. Is it healthy?

 

[David T]

Well survival is requisite on the ability to make snap-decisions, not always correct, in the face of potential danger.

Let's take an ancient tribe which holds the belief "All tigers are dangerous monsters who want to kill us, they are pure evil and harbor no emotion except malice towards mankind".

We'll take two individuals, Tribesman A, who has no skill at self-deception, and Tribesman B, who has skill at self-deception.

Both Tribesman A and B, while hunting, independently stumble across an abnormally docile tiger. Perhaps this tiger fed recently, saw no threat in the humans, and thus no need to react in an aggressive manner towards the humans.

Tribesman A's beliefs are challenged. Maybe not all tigers wanted to kill humans at all times!! Maybe tigers weren't motivated by malicious intent towards humans!! Based on the fact he has observed a docile tiger, he has learned correctly that not all tigers pose a threat to humans, and tigers are not motivated by a desire to murder humans.

Tribesman B's beliefs are likewise challenged, but he uses self-deception to cling to his long-standing beliefs that tigers are literally evil beings who have no motivation other than an innate desire to murder human beings. Using self-deception, he convinces himself that the "docile" tiger was just trying to trick him into letting his guard down, so the tiger could eat him. Tribesman B killed the docile tiger because he thought it was evil and trying to trick him.

The next day both Tribesman A and B go out hunting again in different areas. Both come across a different tiger.

Tribesman B, who has deceived himself into believing tigers are all inherently malignant and evil beings, immediately stabs and kills his tiger.

Tribesman A, on the other hand, lets his guard down, wondering if this tiger is another docile tiger who is not a threat. This particular tiger, however, was not, and Tribesman A was promptly eaten.

That's just one instance I can think of where the ability to self-deceive oneself into believing an incorrect belief (the inherent evil and malice of all tigers) which results in a higher rate of survival and reproduction.

Does one need cultural orthodoxy doctrine dogma to survive in the wilderness?, how does the rest of life survive?

 

[Nakosis]

Is that self deception? Maybe if it's sincere I suppose I see that as true. Is it healthy?

Mostly I just see it as useful. Mentally healthy? I can imagine cases where this might be true. Hope is generally self deceptive, but it motivates us to keep trying to succeed.

There's also cases where it could be harmful. You could be in denial about your relationships. Which could cause all kinds of unnecessary drama in your life.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

So you are saying that self deception is a good normal healthy way of understanding anything and everything?

No. I'm saying that self deception is a side effect of heuristics that are adaptive most of the time.

 

[Augustus]

It caused me to wonder what advantage self deception has in Evolutionary terms. I also wondered, why does it even exist? It's a quality that won't show up in formal science itself in observational science of nature.

There are those who do try to study it scientifically, one of them even wrote a book about it:

“The central claim of this book is that self-deception evolves in the service of deception—the better to fool others. Sometimes it also benefits deception by saving on cognitive load during the act, and at times it also provides an easy defense against accusations of deception (namely, I was unconscious of my actions). In the first case, the self-deceived fails to give off the cues that go with consciously mediated deception, thus escaping detection. In the second, the actual process of deception is rendered cognitively less expensive by keeping part of the truth in the unconscious. That is, the brain can act more efficiently when it is unaware of the ongoing contradiction. And in the third case, the deception, when detected, is more easily defended against—that is, rationalized— to others as being unconsciously propagated. In some cases, self-deception may give a direct personal advantage by at least temporarily elevating the organism into a more productive state, but most of the time such elevation occurs without self-deception.”

Excerpt From: Robert Trivers. “Deceit and Self-Deception.”

 

[Aupmanyav]

If there was no self-deception, there would not have been any I, me or mine.

 

[sun rise]

This is an interesting question. The evolution and psychology of self-deception. - PubMed - NCBI for example:

In this article we argue that self-deception evolved to facilitate interpersonal deception by allowing people to avoid the cues to conscious deception that might reveal deceptive intent. Self-deception has two additional advantages: It eliminates the costly cognitive load that is typically associated with deceiving, and it can minimize retribution if the deception is discovered. Beyond its role in specific acts of deception, self-deceptive self-enhancement also allows people to display more confidence than is warranted, which has a host of social advantages.

 

[Sanzbir]

Does one need cultural orthodoxy doctrine dogma to survive in the wilderness?, how does the rest of life survive?

Where did that come from?? What do you mean/what did you think I was saying??

 

[David T]

Where did that come from?? What do you mean/what did you think I was saying??

I originally posted a link to a defender of Freud in the catholic reporter on the original post. what is wrong with the article?

 

[Nakosis]

I stumbled across an article singing the praises of freud for catholics in the Catholic reporter.

We’ve nothing to fear from Freud | CatholicHerald.co.uk

It caused me to wonder what advantage self deception has in Evolutionary terms. I also wondered, why does it even exist? It's a quality that won't show up in formal science itself in observational science of nature. There is not a self deception particle in particle physics. We would not find a self deception fossil in the fossil records. So self deception itself while factual, at the same time does not literally exist in traditional measurable ways. It only exists for us in casual ways. Are trees self deceived? In antiquity self deception was personified or clothed. Today It seems everyone believes they are immune and everyone else is infected. Strange world indeed.

Our life always expresses the result of our dominant thoughts.
Soren kierkegaard

Supposedly an embryo is parasitic. It deceives the host mother into redirecting resources to itself. So even before birth a child is deceiving it's mother. I think viruses trick their hosts in similar ways.

If I can deceive you into buying land that doesn't exist then then I'm acquiring more resources for myself.

The ability to deceive seems a obvious survival trait. Like others have mentioned, self-deception facilitates the ability to deceive others.

Sometimes it's easy to spot someone lying. They are nervous, sweat, fidgety etc...

It they can believe the lie, then physically they will react as if they were trying the truth. The deception is more convincing.

Folks that can deceive convincingly are probably very good at self deception.

 

[David T]

There are those who do try to study it scientifically, one of them even wrote a book about it:

“The central claim of this book is that self-deception evolves in the service of deception—the better to fool others. Sometimes it also benefits deception by saving on cognitive load during the act, and at times it also provides an easy defense against accusations of deception (namely, I was unconscious of my actions). In the first case, the self-deceived fails to give off the cues that go with consciously mediated deception, thus escaping detection. In the second, the actual process of deception is rendered cognitively less expensive by keeping part of the truth in the unconscious. That is, the brain can act more efficiently when it is unaware of the ongoing contradiction. And in the third case, the deception, when detected, is more easily defended against—that is, rationalized— to others as being unconsciously propagated. In some cases, self-deception may give a direct personal advantage by at least temporarily elevating the organism into a more productive state, but most of the time such elevation occurs without self-deception.”

Excerpt From: Robert Trivers. “Deceit and Self-Deception.”

“The central claim of this book is that self-deception evolves in the service of deception—the better to fool others.
self deception in the service of self deception.There seems to be an interesting structure there that I think has some validity. I have asked, in religious terms to posts "Satan is the great deceiver!!! who is his greatest victim" people find it difficult due to understanding curiously!! I also understand exactly how I have used the term Satan here. Clothing.