Separation of Church and State

[Pah]

The mixing of government and religion can be a threat to free government, even if no one is forced to participate.... When the government puts its imprimatur on a particular religion, it conveys a message of exclusion to all those who do not adhere to the favored beliefs. A government cannot be premised on the belief that all persons are created equal when it asserts that God prefers some.
-- Harry Blackmun, Majority Opinion, Lee v. Weisman, 1992

Should this this be a guiding principle of separation?

Bob

 

[retrorich]

What we really need to do is separate George W. Bush from the presidency.

 

[huajiro]

What we really need to do is separate George W. Bush from the presidency.

Amen, amen, amen

 

[huajiro]

When you think about it, it is impossible to truly separate Church from State as the same majority will always rule. How many Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, etc do you think will be in our Government?

 

[HelpMe]

i agree with the idea, but i wonder if it extends to seperating the religion(church) from the individual whom is participating in the government(state) since many common morals are said to be rooted in religion.

 

[desi]

So long as government enforces morals-LAW, church will not be separate from state.

 

[Ceridwen018]

desi,

I beg to differ. Our secular laws might be founded in religious morals, but that doesn't mean they're tied to them.

 

[desi]

desi,

I beg to differ. Our secular laws might be founded in religious morals, but that doesn't mean they're tied to them.

What would you prefer laws be tied to?

 

[Rex]

What would you prefer laws be tied to?

Some would argue natural laws or common laws.

 

[Ceridwen018]

Those would work, Rex.

The way I see it, laws need to be based on what is best for society, and what is fair for all people--not on what god wants.

 

[Pah]

What would you prefer laws be tied to?

The Constitution which is founded on common law.

Bob

 

[Valjean]

A Humanist, eh?

 

[Pah]

A Humanist, eh?

Yeah! But, hehehe, a patriotic,Constitutional humanist

Bob

 

[desi]

The Constitution which is founded on common law.

Bob

Hate to break it to you but God is in the constitution, as well as every courtroom, as well as the money in your pocket. If you are a humanist independent of God, all you need to do is look to the former USSR and Communist China to see where that road leads.

 

[Master Vigil]

Even though god is within everything no matter if we would like it to or not. Our ideas of god should not be. If anything god probably hates american politics and wants no part of it. Yet bush tries to bring him back. God is probably like, "Fine, he wants to bring me into this, I'll take away all of his braincells so he can no longer form complete sentences. Yeah, that should do it."

 

[desi]

Even though god is within everything no matter if we would like it to or not. Our ideas of god should not be. If anything god probably hates american politics and wants no part of it. Yet bush tries to bring him back. God is probably like, "Fine, he wants to bring me into this, I'll take away all of his braincells so he can no longer form complete sentences. Yeah, that should do it."

G O D, "God" is there, not as in 'God is everywhere'. God is written in our laws and institutions, "In God We Trust", The Holy Bible people place their hands on in court, "We hold these truths to be self evident that God created all men equal." God's influence is what America was founded on. If you take God out of America you will change America to something it was never meant to be.

 

[Master Vigil]

God, is a word. And idea. Finite, imperfect. When I said god was everywhere, I didn't mean a word. I meant god. It is the words and ideas that should not be in american government. And I believe most of the founding fathers were deists and agnostics. Which is why they didn't want religion and government together. They didn't want gods influence on america.

 

[Ceridwen018]

desi, which god, exactly, would you have our government subscribe to? Yours? But of course. What about mine, though? What about Vigil's? We want a piece of the pie too, and in this land of freedom and equality, we are more than entitled to it. Tell me then, which is simpler: for our governement to cite every religion and every god/goddess in order to include everyone, or to refuse to claim loyalty and dominion to any? You see, if we are to have our freedom as it should be, separartion of church and state is necessary. Belief in god is certainly part of our history, no one can deny that. However, perhaps that is the point--it is a thing of the past.

 

[desi]

God, is a word. And idea. Finite, imperfect. When I said god was everywhere, I didn't mean a word. I meant god. It is the words and ideas that should not be in american government. And I believe most of the founding fathers were deists and agnostics. Which is why they didn't want religion and government together. They didn't want gods influence on america.

I just gave several instances where the founders put God in government. Do you really think they did it because they thought God was an impotent word to be sprinkled around wantonly? Don't kid yourself, we can take the word "God" out of places but it won't make anything better for it. Actually since they took God out of public schools the price of education has gone up and the performance of students has gone down, but that's just a correlation.

 

[desi]

desi, which god, exactly, would you have our government subscribe to? Yours? But of course. What about mine, though? What about Vigil's? We want a piece of the pie too, and in this land of freedom and equality, we are more than entitled to it. Tell me then, which is simpler: for our governement to cite every religion and every god/goddess in order to include everyone, or to refuse to claim loyalty and dominion to any? You see, if we are to have our freedom as it should be, separartion of church and state is necessary. Belief in god is certainly part of our history, no one can deny that. However, perhaps that is the point--it is a thing of the past.

Which country that has 'kicked God out' would you prefer to live in, the former USSR or Communist China? Both were created in the spirit and intention of secualr humanism which you seem to hold true and dear in your heart.