Sex and Catholicism

[Estro Felino]

Far as I can figure, the sustaining idea would be that good Catholics will never engage in sex without accepting the possibility of pregnancy and the duties that come with it.

That's not what a good Catholic is...in my opinion.
A good Catholic is a person who has protected sex. By using contraceptives.

A good Catholic doesn't do what the Pope tells them to do. If the Pope tells me to jump off a cliff, I won't do it.

Why would people insist on both adhering to a group with clear directives and make a point of not caring about those directives is a very proper question to ask.

The Church condemns usury too...but so many bankers are allowed into the church...

 

[GoodAttention]

The Church condemns usury too...but so many bankers are allowed into the church...

I thought Italy has usury laws? Or does it not apply to Vatican City?

 

[Estro Felino]

I thought Italy has usury laws? Or does it not apply to Vatican City?

What banks do...isn't that usury?

 

[GoodAttention]

What banks do...isn't that usury?

If any and all loans are usury, then yes.

I'm sure you also know Italy has Usury Law

The Default Interest and Usury Law Conundrum – The Italian Supreme Court Provides Some Clarity | Cleary Gottlieb

The Default Interest and Usury Law Conundrum – The Italian Supreme Court Provides Some Clarity

www.clearygottlieb.com

But yes, there is nothing sexy about ridiculously high interest rates...

 

[Viker]

That's not what a good Catholic is...in my opinion.
A good Catholic is a person who has protected sex. By using contraceptives.

A good Catholic doesn't do what the Pope tells them to do. If the Pope tells me to jump off a cliff, I won't do it.


The Church condemns usury too...but so many bankers are allowed into the church...

Not that it has too much to do with sex. The Vatican has its own bank, the Institute for the Works of Religion (IOR).

 

[Viker]

What banks do...isn't that usury?

Usury is charging unreasonable interest rates (with all those little hidden fees). It's not the simple charging of reasonable rates.

 

[Viker]

What astonishes me the most about non-Catholics is that they believe that Catholics follow the precepts about sexuality dictated by the Pope and the Vatican Congregations

I already know that quite a many Catholics ignore the policies of the Vatican and the catechism. In fact, most non-Catholics would likely agree with me.

 

[Estro Felino]

If any and all loans are usury, then yes.

I'm sure you also know Italy has Usury Law

The Default Interest and Usury Law Conundrum – The Italian Supreme Court Provides Some Clarity | Cleary Gottlieb

The Default Interest and Usury Law Conundrum – The Italian Supreme Court Provides Some Clarity

www.clearygottlieb.com

But yes, there is nothing sexy about ridiculously high interest rates...

I mean...if I lend you something, I don't ask you for more money than I lent you.

Let's say that the bank need to fund their service. The 5% of the lent sum would be a fair price.
Higher than that is called usury. Legalized usury, because the State approves of it. So the State goes illegal to make this legal.

 

[Estro Felino]

Usury is charging unreasonable interest rates (with all those little hidden fees). It's not the simple charging of reasonable rates.

Give me examples of reasonable interest rates.

 

[Estro Felino]

Not that it has too much to do with sex. The Vatican has its own bank, the Institute for the Works of Religion (IOR).

The IOR doesn't lend any money.
The IOR funds charities.

 

[GoodAttention]

I mean...if I lend you something, I don't ask you for more money than I lent you.

Let's say that the bank need to fund their service. The 5% of the lent sum would be a fair price.
Higher than that is called usury. Legalized usury, because the State approves of it. So the State goes illegal to make this legal.

If I wanted to borrow 100 euros, for the sake of an experiment, when do you expect me to return your 100 euros?

I think 5% is reasonable if it is 90 days no?

 

[Estro Felino]

If I wanted to borrow 100 euros, for the sake of an experiment, when do you expect me to return your 100 euros?

I think 5% is reasonable if it is 90 days no?

No...it's reasonable ever.
Is there a limit by chance for you? Or even a 50% interest rate is good?

 

[LuisDantas]

Not at all. I just meant that religion teaches to do good but not all obey. If Buddha or Christ encourages love and people instead choose to hate then They are not at fault as the followers made their own choice.

Obedience is not morality, or even conductive to morality, though.

Don't be so hasty in concluding that Buddhism and Christianity are comparable to each other.

 

[LuisDantas]

That's not what a good Catholic is...in my opinion.
A good Catholic is a person who has protected sex. By using contraceptives.

Despite the Catholic Authority explicitly saying that it is not so.

Don't you find that somewhat odd?

Not my house to manage, of course. My relationship to Catholicism amounts to having been raised into it from well before it was explained to me and then deciding that I have no interest in it.

A good Catholic doesn't do what the Pope tells them to do. If the Pope tells me to jump off a cliff, I won't do it.

Nor will you go through the trouble of questioning the authority (or at least the discernment) of the Pope either? Is that it?

Again, don't you find that somewhat odd?

The Church condemns usury too...but so many bankers are allowed into the church...

Therefore?

 

[Estro Felino]

Therefore?

Therefore when the Pope doesn't allow banksters in the house of the Lord, I will start obeying him.

 

[metis]

What astonishes me the most about non-Catholics is that they believe that Catholics follow the precepts about sexuality dictated by the Pope and the Vatican Congregations.
That is really laughable. Catholics would be fundamentalists if they followed the Catholic doctrine literally.
I mean...in Catholilandia (my country) maybe just the 4% doesn't have premarital sex. That is, they have sex after the wedding.
And yet Catholic doctrine forbids premarital sex.

And since most people are Catholics, they use contraceptives all the time, even if they are forbidden by the Catholic doctrine.

Honestly I have never met a Catholic person (going to Church) that said that they would never use the pill or the condoms. Never.
And yet they go to Church and take the Eucharist.

Thoughts?

The role of the Church is to teach what it believes, but the role of the individual Catholic is to listen to the teachings and then make an informed decision.

 

[Kathryn]

And well it should be. The institution, its myths, and doctrinal secrets, are where the salvation of the world, and the erection (so to say) of the kingdom of God (the new world) find their power and prestige. Just as in Judaism, so too in Catholicism, the mindless and spiritless masses know nothing of the immensely rich institutions they see as little more than lifeless relics to which they ignorantly genuflect merely because their parents and peers did and do. Nothing could sum up this thoughtless, hopeless, lifeless, religious impulse better than a statement Rabbi Hirsch wrote in one of his letters.

Today two diametrically opposed parties confront each other. The one party has inherited uncomprehended Judaism as a mechanical habit, without its spirit; they bear it in their hands as a sacred relic, a revered mummy, and fear to rouse its spirit. The others are partly filled with noble enthusiasm for the welfare of the Jews but look upon Judaism as a lifeless framework, as something which should be laid in the grave of a long since dead and buried past. They seek its spirit and find it not, and are in danger, with all their efforts to help the Jew, of severing the last life line of Judaism.​

​

Rabbi Samson Hirsch, Nineteen Letters, letter 18.​

John

There are about 6 million adult converts to Catholicism in the US alone. I am one. I am neither mindless nor spiritless. I do not "know nothing of the immensely rich institutions" I see whenever I go to mass. My parents and peers did not genuflect and so I am not copying them.

Of course, it takes nearly a year to convert so some people do put it off but still attend Mass.

 

[Alien826]

I mean...if I lend you something, I don't ask you for more money than I lent you.

Let's say that the bank need to fund their service. The 5% of the lent sum would be a fair price.
Higher than that is called usury. Legalized usury, because the State approves of it. So the State goes illegal to make this legal.

The dictionary definition of usury sets out two meanings. One is all interest and the other is excessive interest. The strictures against charging interest by Christians in the middle ages were why Jews became "money lenders" (Merchant of Venice).

While you and I might be happy to lend a small sum to a friend without charging interest, such a practice would make banking effectively impossible. Interest represents the cost to the lender of not using the money in some other way, plus some profit to enable them to stay in business. Banks also charge different rates of interest based on the credit worthiness of the borrower. That allows them to cover loans that are not repaid.

That doesn't mean that all modern banking practices are good, quite the contrary. And excessive rates of interest do exist (see "payday" loans). But the banking industry is an essential part of a capitalist system.

 

[Estro Felino]

The dictionary definition of usury sets out two meanings. One is all interest and the other is excessive interest. The strictures against charging interest by Christians in the middle ages were why Jews became "money lenders" (Merchant of Venice).

I can assure you that the usurers mentioned in the Divine Comedy by Dante were all Christians.

While you and I might be happy to lend a small sum to a friend without charging interest, such a practice would make banking effectively impossible. Interest represents the cost to the lender of not using the money in some other way, plus some profit to enable them to stay in business. Banks also charge different rates of interest based on the credit worthiness of the borrower. That allows them to cover loans that are not repaid.

Do you know the pensions system?
The pension system is managed by the State.
If the State managed the banking sector too...there would be no need of excessive interest rates because the State would charge very low interest rates.

 

[LuisDantas]

Therefore when the Pope doesn't allow banksters in the house of the Lord, I will start obeying him.

Does that not mean that you are not a Catholic, though?