Sex education and abortion

[Estro Felino]

Honestly, I am really mystified whenever abortion is debated at political level, especially in the US.
The debate sounds like we were still in the Middle Ages and there were no available effective contraception methods.
Or as if pregnancy just happened. Like something unavoidable, like cancer. Cancer just happens.

Absolutely not: pregnancies don't just happen. Pregnancies are the result of intense sexual activity.
Most pregnancies are the result of unprotected sex, performed constantly.

For example, I have a cousin that got pregnant two years after the wedding. That is, she has tried to get pregnant for two years. This demonstrates that getting pregnant is not that easy: it's the result of intense and constant sexual activity.

In my country sex education is compulsory in all schools: that is why the rate of teen moms is very low. Also because public schools provide for free counseling, in most regions.
Besides, the birth control is very effective. There are mothers who initiate their own teenage daughters to the pill, even if the latter have no sex life.

I would like to know why sex is still a taboo. As something that terrifies whoever means to debate abortion.
Before speaking of abortion, we should speak of prevention. Prevention is better than cure.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Absolutely not: pregnancy don't just happen. Pregnancies are the result of intense sexual activity.
Most pregnancies are the result of unprotected sex, performed constantly.

And some women are raped.

 

[Estro Felino]

And some women are raped.

Exactly.
But what is the percentage of abortions due to rape?
And what is the percentage of abortions due to unwanted pregnancies caused by unprotected sex (between spouses, for example)?


I guess less than one out of ten.

 

[Stevicus]

Honestly, I am really mystified whenever abortion is debated at political level, especially in the US.
The debate sounds like we were still in the Middle Ages and there were no available effective contraception methods.
Or as if pregnancy just happened. Like something unavoidable, like cancer. Cancer just happens.

Absolutely not: pregnancy don't just happen. Pregnancies are the result of intense sexual activity.
Most pregnancies are the result of unprotected sex, performed constantly.

For example, I have a cousin that got pregnant two years after the wedding. That is, she has tried to get pregnant for two years. This demonstrates that getting pregnant is not that easy: it's the result of intense and constant sexual activity.

In my country sex education is compulsory in all schools: that is why the rate of teen moms is very low. Also because public schools provide for free counseling, in most regions.

I would like to know why sex is still a taboo. As something that terrifies whoever means to debate abortion.

We have sex education in U.S. schools, although it may not be entirely consistent from district to district.

Nevertheless, abortion has been a very divisive and controversial issue for as long as I can remember. In high school debate classes, it was always one of the big three debate topics (along with capital punishment and gun control). In other words, those were the issues we were allowed to debate about.

When you really come down to it, when it comes to abortion, regardless of which side wins or whether society makes abortion legal or illegal, it has absolutely zero impact on the political system or the class hierarchy in the U.S. Even if people get angry and passionate over it, it's still a relatively safe issue to let the hoi polloi argue over. Better to channel the energies and dissension of the masses into something like that, rather than have them focus on things like the disparities between rich and poor.

Abortion has become the "tastes great" vs. "less filling" of U.S. politics. It doesn't matter what side you take, as long as you're drinking the same brand of beer.

 

[Estro Felino]

We have sex education in U.S. schools, although it may not be entirely consistent from district to district.

Nevertheless, abortion has been a very divisive and controversial issue for as long as I can remember. In high school debate classes, it was always one of the big three debate topics (along with capital punishment and gun control). In other words, those were the issues we were allowed to debate about.

When you really come down to it, when it comes to abortion, regardless of which side wins or whether society makes abortion legal or illegal, it has absolutely zero impact on the political system or the class hierarchy in the U.S. Even if people get angry and passionate over it, it's still a relatively safe issue to let the hoi polloi argue over. Better to channel the energies and dissension of the masses into something like that, rather than have them focus on things like the disparities between rich and poor.

Abortion has become the "tastes great" vs. "less filling" of U.S. politics. It doesn't matter what side you take, as long as you're drinking the same brand of beer.

It's probably because an elitist and lounge-loving Left uses abortion as topic to shift the attention from real social-economic issues...like free universal healthcare, for example.

 

[Estro Felino]

Listen to her...and realize how the topic has been instrumentalized to hijack the political discourse since the solutions are so simple.

 

[ChristineM]

It's probably because an elitist and lounge-loving Left uses abortion as topic to shift the attention from real social-economic issues...like free universal healthcare, for example.

I am pretty sure it was the religious right who forced the abortion debate and railroaded it into law thus ****ting on woman's rights

 

[wellwisher]

As was mentioned, guns are another issue. Would gun use and safety education make the gun problem better or worse, as did sex education do for sex and abortion?

The part about abortion, that I am not comfortable with, is the ritual of abortion is not much different from the ancient practice of human sacrifices. In some Pagan and Satanic cults, the people would sacrifice a virgin girl or even babies to get a boost from the gods. The actual sacrifice was usually done by a Priest who oversaw the ritual. Science and lawyers has allowed this tradition to reappear and even go one step further by human sacrificing the unborn using technology. Doctors are the new Pagan Priests of this modern version of the ritual.

I do not think such religious ritual, like the "Rite of Abortion", should be sanctioned by the State. It is not supposed to establish any religion, never mind one that uses the practice of human sacrifices. I don't think lawyers arguing this is not a human sacrifice and that Liberalism is not a religion, should stand up in court. If it quacks it is a duck, even if you pretend not to hear the quack.

 

[Quintessence]

There is a lie propagated by the "pro-life" movement that abortion is routinely used as a form of birth control in lieu of other forms of birth control.

It is not.

And even if it was, that would not be a good reason to promote forced birth and forced pregnancy.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I will admit that people in the US seem especially stupid when it comes to sex and avoiding pregnancy and STDs. There's a lot of people who think you can't get pregnant if you only do it once and then there's a ton of men who refuse to use condoms and the women still spread their legs. At the end of the day, if you're allowing a penis to go into your vagina or sexual fluids near it, you're dealing with some chance of pregnancy. A lot of people just shouldn't be having sex because they're irresponsible and stupid. I have little sympathy because you can educate yourself with the Internet.

 

[Estro Felino]

The part about abortion, that I am not comfortable with, is the ritual of abortion is not much different from the ancient practice of human sacrifices.

The shocking thing is that there have been Satanists who claimed abortion is a human sacrifice for them.

In some Pagan and Satanic cults, the people would sacrifice a virgin girl or even babies to get a boost from the gods. The actual sacrifice was usually done by a Priest who oversaw the ritual. Science and lawyers has allowed this tradition to reappear and even go one step further by human sacrificing the unborn using technology. Doctors are the new Pagan Priests of this modern version of the ritual.

Baal Moloch, the deity of the Carthaginians.

 

[Estro Felino]

There is a lie propagated by the "pro-life" movement that abortion is routinely used as a form of birth control in lieu of other forms of birth control.

It's not a lie. It's statistics.
There is a significant (not that high, but significant) percentage of abortions performed because of unwanted pregnancies.
Unwanted pregnancies due to unprotected sex.
And by protected sex I mean that the woman has to take the hormonal pill regularly, and the man has to wear a condom.

And even if it was, that would not be a good reason to promote forced birth and forced pregnancy.

I didn't say that.
I said that an unwanted pregnancy despite the contraception makes abortion more understandable.

An unwanted pregnancy because of absolute lack of contraception makes abortion unethical and not worthy of a civilized society.

Because it's 2023. It's not the Middle Ages. There are countless available contraception methods.

 

[metis]

Not all contraception techniques work, thus our 2nd child.

 

[Estro Felino]

Not all contraception techniques work, thus our 2nd child.

Unfortunately in the past there were no effective contraceptives available.
So I'd like to speak of 2023.
That is now.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Honestly, I am really mystified whenever abortion is debated at political level, especially in the US.
The debate sounds like we were still in the Middle Ages and there were no available effective contraception methods.
Or as if pregnancy just happened. Like something unavoidable, like cancer. Cancer just happens.

Absolutely not: pregnancies don't just happen. Pregnancies are the result of intense sexual activity.
Most pregnancies are the result of unprotected sex, performed constantly.

For example, I have a cousin that got pregnant two years after the wedding. That is, she has tried to get pregnant for two years. This demonstrates that getting pregnant is not that easy: it's the result of intense and constant sexual activity.

In my country sex education is compulsory in all schools: that is why the rate of teen moms is very low. Also because public schools provide for free counseling, in most regions.
Besides, the birth control is very effective. There are mothers who initiate their own teenage daughters to the pill, even if the latter have no sex life.

I would like to know why sex is still a taboo. As something that terrifies whoever means to debate abortion.
Before speaking of abortion, we should speak of prevention. Prevention is better than cure.

America is sometimes a strange land. For example, compare television programming in America (the "New World") compared to that available in most of Europe (the "Old World"). There are things that are perfectly permissible on European television that you will just never see or hear on American TV. Hell, when I was growing up, married TV couples had separate beds, and could never be shown even sitting together on the same bed.

The sometimes excessive reliosity of many Americans makes them often terrified of matters sexual -- well, at least talking about them, if not doing them in back seat of the car. As a result, while there is some (inconsistent) sex ed in schools, a lot of parents just can't bring themselves to talking to their kids about sex without betraying their own deep embarassment. That's poisonous in helping kids learn to respect and control themselves when nature's deep urges take control.

 

[Estro Felino]

America is sometimes a strange land. For example, compare television programming in America (the "New World") compared to that available in most of Europe (the "Old World"). There are things that are perfectly permissible on European television that you will just never see or hear on American TV. Hell, when I was growing up, married TV couples had separate beds, and could never be shown even sitting together on the same bed.

I dare not imagine what they think of our television.
It's not only a matter of female nudity...which is absolutely normal...
People talk about their own sex life in an absolutely natural way. There is no modesty...at all.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I dare not imagine what they think of our television.
It's not only a matter of female nudity...which is absolutely normal...
People talk about their own sex life in an absolutely natural way. There is no modesty...at all.

You just can't show nudity or sex, or have profanity or much violence on the public broadcasters. You can have all that on cable and streaming, though.

 

[Stevicus]

It's probably because an elitist and lounge-loving Left uses abortion as topic to shift the attention from real social-economic issues...like free universal healthcare, for example.

My own personal view on the matter is that abortion is a matter for healthcare and should remain in the realm of the doctor-patient relationship. I also believe that healthcare is a universal human right, although the prevailing opinion among the leadership today (as proven by the current system and policies we have) is that quality healthcare should only be a privilege for the wealthy. This has remained the case across both Democratic and Republican administrations. Even the promises of Obamacare never really materialized. The whole system is a joke.

To me, abortion is a private and personal matter. I would never presume to tell a woman whether she should or shouldn't get an abortion. I don't even think I'm qualified (nor even is the state qualified) to determine whether it should be legal or illegal. So, at this point, I think it should default to being legal and left to the realm of healthcare and medical ethics.

I also don't see it as automatically a "left vs. right" issue. Even Trump seems to be backpedaling on abortion and seems to believe that some Republicans' rigid stance on the issue could cost them votes next year. And even on the left, the "big tent" still includes many disparate factions and voting blocs which might agree on some things, but not on everything. Abortion is just one of many issues, although I don't know if it's a make-or-break issue for that many voters. If a conservative is 99% conservative yet pro-abortion, would many conservatives reject them? Likewise, if a liberal is 99% liberal yet anti-abortion, would many liberals reject them?

As for your other point about sex education, along with the perceived sexual irresponsibility and failure to use birth control - liberals are the ones who tend to favor more sex education. Liberals and progressives are among the most vocal advocates for sexual responsibility and using birth control. Abortion is really just a last resort, and in fact, the number of abortions is only an infinitesimally small portion of the population.

The conservatives have largely been against that, and they're largely against any kind of public sexual displays or any kind of open discussion about sex. Their solution to the problem is abstinence, just "don't have sex." They think that everyone should remain pure until their wedding day, which sounds good in theory, but not very realistic in this day and age. (It wasn't even realistic in previous times, but as long as we had shotguns, the problem could be dealt with.)

 

[Estro Felino]

As for your other point about sex education, along with the perceived sexual irresponsibility and failure to use birth control - liberals are the ones who tend to favor more sex education.

There probably is a problem of sex education in the US...that goes beyond abortion...because the number of teen moms is higher than the European average.
Fortunately there is adoption, which I think is a very good solution (I admit it, I am a Christian, that's why).
I grew up in the nineties and I met no teen mom. Never seen one.
Just think that my cousin had her first child at 36.

Liberals and progressives are among the most vocal advocates for sexual responsibility and using birth control. Abortion is really just a last resort, and in fact, the number of abortions is only an infinitesimally small portion of the population.

I think that sex should be something pleasant.
Through contraception, sex is lived more naturally and without the fear of unwanted pregnancies.
Hormonal pills are really, really effective. Because months of artificial hormones inevitably offset the ovarian cycle. One basically deceives the ovaries, letting them believe that there is a pregnancy, so they will stop producing egg cells.
Artificial hormones like etynilestradiol and drosprirenone are very powerful. Much more powerful than the natural hormones the female body produces, that is estrogens and progesterone.
So they very seldom fail. Of course they need to be taken regularly for months and months.

The conservatives have largely been against that, and they're largely against any kind of public sexual displays or any kind of open discussion about sex. Their solution to the problem is abstinence, just "don't have sex." They think that everyone should remain pure until their wedding day, which sounds good in theory, but not very realistic in this day and age. (It wasn't even realistic in previous times, but as long as we had shotguns, the problem could be dealt with.)

Not all Conservatives are like that. I posted a video of Nikki Haley.

 

[Stevicus]

America is sometimes a strange land. For example, compare television programming in America (the "New World") compared to that available in most of Europe (the "Old World"). There are things that are perfectly permissible on European television that you will just never see or hear on American TV. Hell, when I was growing up, married TV couples had separate beds, and could never be shown even sitting together on the same bed.

The sometimes excessive reliosity of many Americans makes them often terrified of matters sexual -- well, at least talking about them, if not doing them in back seat of the car. As a result, while there is some (inconsistent) sex ed in schools, a lot of parents just can't bring themselves to talking to their kids about sex without betraying their own deep embarassment. That's poisonous in helping kids learn to respect and control themselves when nature's deep urges take control.

When I was growing up, I'll admit it was rather confusing and with a lot of mixed messages. From age 7 to 9, my mother, brother, and I lived down the street from an adult movie theater. I was aware of magazines like Playboy and what an "R" and "X" rating was. But I was also aware that these were things not allowed to me, and such things were either ignored or just not discussed in our family. My older brother was kind of a guide in a way (although he was kind of misguided himself).

TV was different, although there were clearly noticeable differences between what was permitted in the 70s and 80s as opposed to the 1950s and 60s. With the advent of pay channels and cable, the racy and sexy entertainment was made available to Americans, but just at an extra cost. The broadcast, over-the-air stations still had to follow certain standards, but the cable networks weren't bound by such constraints.

And of course, with the internet available to most people, it's now "almost anything goes." Americans can still have access to what is shown in Europe; it's not like we're North Korea and cut off from the rest of the world.

I think what it is, is this: Americans know what's going on, but there's always been this underlying desire to put forth some image of purity, honor, and nobility. It's a crock of BS, but that's America. Some guy could be a total lech, yet as long as he puts forth the image of a good, dedicated family man (however phony it may be), that's all that people care about. That might fit the description of someone in the public eye.