Sex/Gender

[Unfettered]

Absolutely confused.

What, specifically, are you confused about? I ask because I honestly don't know.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Absent unusual conditions, one's sex isn't a complicated question or matter. Human beings and human societies can be quite complex, though.

So many variations on a spectrum makes the topic of sex complicated, even if most people present typically.

Though really we don't know how unusual it is because the most common intersex conditions are ones people don't find out about until they get phenotype tested. Something we stopped doing routinely because too many people found out abruptly their plumbing didn't match their software. Since most of us don't get chromosome testing, who can say how unusual it *really* is? Though even conservative estimates place intersex numbers near the number of people who have red hair.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

There are a lot of things that are not normal nor common. He was the one who brought up his mutation in a conversation about things that are abnormal.

She.

 

[Kfox]

Did you read the article you linked? Fish don't even have xx and xy, they have an entirely different chromosomal pairing called zz/zw, just like birds and some reptiles.

I'm talking about the intersex condition mentioned in the article you gave me called xx male or de la Chapelle and xy female or swyer. Because the karyotype didn't determine the phenotype.

I also mentioned xy/xx chimerism because having both phenotypes spread throughout their body doesn't make them male, and literally nobody classifies them that way.

Are you talking about the section titled XX male syndrome? The article does mention several X&Y combinations that are the exception to the rule, but these are exceptions; not the rule. The fact that they are listed as syndrome indicates this happens when something goes wrong; this is not an example of another gender or biological sex. However; even if we do consider intersex another gender/biological sex, what does this biological condition have to do with transgenderism, if you are gonna claim biology is separate from gender?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Are you talking about the section titled XX male syndrome? The article does mention several X&Y combinations that are the exception to the rule, but these are exceptions; not the rule. The fact that they are listed as syndrome indicates this happens when something goes wrong; this is not an example of another gender or biological sex. However; even if we do consider intersex another gender/biological sex, what does this biological condition have to do with transgenderism, if you are gonna claim biology is separate from gender?

Literally every mutation that makes us what we are, including having sexes at all, is because of 'something that went wrong.' If you approached biology as 'this is what happens but the rest of this stuff that also happens doesn't count' you'd be kicked out.
The only thing that matters Is considering the variation on the spectrum to understand the processes better.

And besides, you've shifted goalposts to 'there are none' to 'those don't count,' and that's pretty disingenuous. Intersex does, in fact, count. People with intersex conditions and even non-intersex hyper or hypoandronization count to show just how complicated sex is, and why people are oversimplify it. Which was what the thread was about.

Yes, people also oversimplify gender and want to keep it merged with the concept of sex. That it isn't and won't ever be again isn't what I'm talking about in the thread though.

 

[Kfox]

Literally every mutation that makes us what we are, including having sexes at all, is because of 'something that went wrong.' If you approached biology as 'this is what happens but the rest of this stuff that also happens doesn't count' you'd be kicked out.
The only thing that matters Is considering the variation on the spectrum to understand the processes better.

My point is that intersex is the exception to the rule; sorta like the syndrome of people who are born with more or less than 5 fingers; because those people exist does not mean the number of fingers a person has is on a spectrum, everybody agrees having anything less or more than 5 fingers means something went wrong

And besides, you've shifted goalposts to 'there are none' to 'those don't count,' and that's pretty disingenuous. Intersex does, in fact, count.

Can you provide an outside source that says intersex is considered a 3rd biological sex?

 

[ADigitalArtist]

My point is that intersex is the exception to the rule; sorta like the syndrome of people who are born with more or less than 5 fingers; because those people exist does not mean the number of fingers a person has is on a spectrum, everybody agrees having anything less or more than 5 fingers means something went wrong

Can you provide an outside source that says intersex is considered a 3rd biological sex?

There are no rules. Just because something is the norm doesn't make it the rule. And when we're considering something that happens greater than one in a million live births, as I said earlier intersex conditions is on par with the number of natural redheads, it's super unhelpful to be so dismissive. Especially because the only reason you're being dismissive is because you want biology to give you a pass to misgender people, and that's not how any of this works.

I'm not going to link you anything until I'm confident you're actually reading your *own* sources, let alone others. You won't even accept your own sources that show sex is a spectrum and many people don't fall into the categories you want them to. And when they don't you say they 'don't count.'

So convince me you're approaching in good faith first.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Absent unusual conditions, one's sex isn't a complicated question or matter. Human beings and human societies can be quite complex, though.

"Unusual conditions" are quite frequent. Let's say that being trans is a one out of a hundred issue. Do they not still have rights? Or do we get to ignore the rights of 1% of the population?

 

[The Hammer]

Or do we get to ignore the rights of 1% of the population?

Absolutely, they mean nothing and get no rights. Aberrations, all of them. /s

 

[Unfettered]

"Unusual conditions" are quite frequent. Let's say that being trans is a one out of a hundred issue. Do they not still have rights? Or do we get to ignore the rights of 1% of the population?

Every human being has the same rights.

 

[ChristineM]

Every human being has the same rights.

If only.
Rights are different by country and even by religion.

 

[Unfettered]

If only.
Rights are different by country and even by religion.

I was stating what I understand. Unfortunately, not everyone understands the same.

 

[Kfox]

There are no rules. Just because something is the norm doesn't make it the rule.

So the fact that there are people who have more or less than 5 on each hand, as a general rule, humans don’t have 5 fingers on each hand? If this is your view, we can just agree to disagree on that one.

And when we're considering something that happens greater than one in a million live births, as I said earlier intersex conditions is on par with the number of natural redheads, it's super unhelpful to be so dismissive

I wasn’t dismissing anything, I was just saying intersex is not another biological sex.

I'm not going to link you anything until I'm confident you're actually reading your *own* sources, let alone others. You won't even accept your own sources that show sex is a spectrum

What link did I provide that said biological sex was a spectrum? Here is the link again; point it out
Y chromosome - Wikipedia