Sex, modesty and shame

[Estro Felino]

Joke:

Why don't Baptists make love standing up?
Because someone might think they are dancing!

Now I have your attention, I'll proceed.

I think it's true that anything that is forbidden becomes interesting and attractive, especially to young people. So yes, if sex is forbidden and/or hidden behind veils of cultural prohibition, people will want to find out what the fuss is all about. At the other end of the scale, if something is totally open and allowed, people may have an initial interest, but that fades as it proves to be not so interesting after all. Somewhere there is a balance, but unfortunately homo sap. seems to be very bad at finding cultural balances.

I absolutely agree with you. Transgression is caused by repression.

This has been a perennial interest of mine, and I fall towards the "open" end of the scale. As an example, in discussions about sex education I have advocated teaching sexual technique (how to give pleasure to your partner) and I typically get "shock horror" even from strong advocates of sex ed. Why? It would be of great benefit to sexual "beginners". Let's see what the reaction is here.

I understand...because there is the absolute mechanism we can find in Freud's Totem and Taboo.
It's a work that explains how the totem is needed even in the most advanced societies like ours. But we can get rid of all this stuff.

My position is that sex is a lot of fun and it is a great shame that people don't get to enjoy it fully because of societal attitudes. Once that is achieved, there's no need to go on about it any more than any other enjoyable activity, that as much as an individual wants to and his/her friends will put up with. Have you thought that a good 90% of popular music is about sex/romance, at one level or another? That's altogether more than the subject deserves. Advertising with sexual images? How much impact would there be if everyone was comfortable in their sexuality?

Excellent.
But it's more deeper than that. That people's psyche depends on a healthy sexuality. And we can have perfectly functioning societies by taking care of people's well-being that includes their sexuality and sex life too.
Evil comes from an unhealthy use of sex, and from an unhealthy vision of sex.
Unfortunately Freud has been vilified by prudes and other bigots, but he has explained it very clearly.

"Profanity" has been mentioned. Who cares, seriously. Words are vibrations in the air that are used to convey information. Why forbid the use of some of them? Try this. "Plondite" is a word I made up. You don't know what it means. Is it offensive? Of course not. Now I'll tell you that it refers to anal sex. Ooooh! Don't say it! But it's the same word that it was before, when you didn't think it was offensive.

In this thread I have never used profanity.
Honestly I couldn't care less about profanity. All that I want is to explain how people better themselves and societies improve whenever they have a satisfying and a healthy sex life.
Wars would disappear, hatred and divisions would terminate.
Just because of a psychological revolution that normalizes sex. That's my theory.

 

[Estro Felino]

That is making a direct comparison based on an assumption.

Speaking of assumption, taking a look at our TV and our programs, what do you assume about Italians and their relationship with sex?
It's national TV....

 

[Wu Wei]

Speaking of assumption, taking a look at our TV and our programs, what do you assume about Italians and their relationship with sex?
It's national TV....

I assume the speak Italian and are overly obsessed with female body parts..and seem to have sexual issues and need therapy.....but that is only based on what I see from your post..... this however makes me an expert on all things Italian... I don't know enough about it and I have no problem admitting that..... all my assumptions are based on the things you post.... which I cannot verify are true nor do I know if you represent a cross section of Italy therefore I cannot say ALL Italians are the same, or most, or even a few.... it may just be you..it may not.... I have no way of telling

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Honestly I have remarked that in the America founded by the Pilgrim Fathers, the culture of modesty is still predominant.
It's normal, because culture shapes our brains.

I have never had any kind of modesty or shame whenever it deals with speaking of sex because I was raised in a country where national TV has always legitimized and normalized shamelessness and any sort of immodesty, and maybe voyeurism.
Voyeurism is being curious about other people's sex life.
Female nudity, obscene language, ...that's what our Italian TV is all about.

For example...this is a TV show, a talk show, where the TV host asks the guests about their sex lives in detail. And she is very curious...she asks them to be as detailed as possible in the description of their own sex life, their sexual activities. And no guest shows shame or fear.

I think that Freud would say that repression causes transgression: he wrote the work Totem und Taboo, which is absolutely wonderful because it's a very thorough analysis on the relationship between psyche and sex.
The most negative passions and attitudes, like aggressivity and so on, are due to the repression and to the taboos that the society imposes.
Those taboos intensify our animalistic part that leads to transgression, to incest and to the most squalid uses of sex, like paraphilias and similar.

Unfortunately the today psychology has become Banality Fair...and most psychiatrists and psychologists have abandoned Freud...and prefer to trivialize very compex mechanisms, that depend on the neuro-science, on the endocrine system, and on the traumas.

What do you guys think?

You make Italy sound so boorish and juvenile with posts like this.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Honestly I have remarked that in the America founded by the Pilgrim Fathers, the culture of modesty is still predominant.
It's normal, because culture shapes our brains.

I have never had any kind of modesty or shame whenever it deals with speaking of sex because I was raised in a country where national TV has always legitimized and normalized shamelessness and any sort of immodesty, and maybe voyeurism.
Voyeurism is being curious about other people's sex life.
Female nudity, obscene language, ...that's what our Italian TV is all about.

For example...this is a TV show, a talk show, where the TV host asks the guests about their sex lives in detail. And she is very curious...she asks them to be as detailed as possible in the description of their own sex life, their sexual activities. And no guest shows shame or fear.

I think that Freud would say that repression causes transgression: he wrote the work Totem und Taboo, which is absolutely wonderful because it's a very thorough analysis on the relationship between psyche and sex.
The most negative passions and attitudes, like aggressivity and so on, are due to the repression and to the taboos that the society imposes.
Those taboos intensify our animalistic part that leads to transgression, to incest and to the most squalid uses of sex, like paraphilias and similar.

Unfortunately the today psychology has become Banality Fair...and most psychiatrists and psychologists have abandoned Freud...and prefer to trivialize very compex mechanisms, that depend on the neuro-science, on the endocrine system, and on the traumas.

What do you guys think?

Meanwhile, when in Italy we visited a cathedral, my girlfriend had to cover herself up by wearing what-i-can-only-call a garbage bag because she was wearing a top with "naked" shoulders.


Having said that, I think you might be confusing "modesty" with merely being able to freely speak about a topic.

Then again, Italy has always struck me as a country with two faces when it comes to this topic.
On the one hand, it's prude as hell... on the other other hand, they gave the world the concepts of "bonga bonga parties" and the "italian stalion".
I'ld almost dare to say that when it comes to sex and general sexyness, Italy is a country with some type of identity crisis.

 

[Estro Felino]

Meanwhile, when in Italy we visited a cathedral, my girlfriend had to cover herself up by wearing what-i-can-only-call a garbage bag because she was wearing a top with "naked" shoulders.

A church is not a public space.
Try to go to Rome in August. So much female nudity.

Having said that, I think you might be confusing "modesty" with merely being able to freely speak about a topic.

We don't have an Italian word for privacy. We borrowed it from English. La privacy. Feminine noun.

Then again, Italy has always struck me as a country with two faces when it comes to this topic.

Superb definition. Because Rome used to be the seat of Paganism with its lustfulness and promiscuity, and now it's the seat of the Vatican.

On the one hand, it's prude as hell... on the other other hand, they gave the world the concepts of "bunga bunga parties" and the "italian stallion".
I'ld almost dare to say that when it comes to sex and general sexyness, Italy is a country with some type of identity crisis.

Perhaps.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

A church is not a public space.

It felt pretty public.

In any case, what is very clear to me, is that the prudeness that exists, is very much coming from church pressure.
It's like Italian sexyness is shackled in catholic chains, kicking and screaming to break out.

That's how it feels anyway whenever I go on vacation there.