Sex-Positive Feminism

[Penumbra]

How do you define-sex positive feminism?

Do you consider yourself a sex-positive feminist, or do you not?

 

[Alceste]

I do identify as a sex positive feminist. Maybe my definition is simplistic, but I define it as being a feminist who is supportive of sexual self-expression, whatever you're into.

 

[Penumbra]

I do identify as a sex positive feminist. Maybe my definition is simplistic, but I define it as being a feminist who is supportive of sexual self-expression, whatever you're into.

What are your views on Sex Work, BDSM, Pornography, Stripping, Kinky Things, Casual Sex, etc? Do you believe that if a woman engages in one or more of those things (which is not necessarily to imply that I mean that they're all on the same level of ethics or safety), even consensually, that it can sometimes be harmful for all women? Do you think that some feminists have a reasonable case that one or more of those things are wrong and that women probably shouldn't engage in them, even if they want to?

 

[Penumbra]

I'll also point out that the intention of the thread is to talk about the philosophy of these things, about sex-positive feminism, not the details, so that it can remain in the Feminist Only area rather than having to be moved to the Sexuality area or the Eros Room.

 

[Rakhel]

I have just realized that I am a sex positive feminist(didn't know the title existed. Wiki can be very enlightening sometimes. )
I see no problem with the sex industry; casual, kinky or vanilla sex; BDSM; pornography, stripping or the like. I believe sexual expression to be liberating after years of "wham, Bam, Thank you Ma'am." The idea that he's only out to get his and screw you if you even try to finish once he's done.
Vanilla sex is good but try to get kinky or role play in bed and you're a bad person making women look bad? Huh?
We're all for pro-choice except in the bedroom. Say what? (That one blows my mind.)
We can walk around in our underwear, walking down the street, daring someone to call us a ****, but heaven forbid we strip down to our skivvies to pay our way through college. WTF??

Sometimes I just don't get people.

 

[Sunstone]

I do identify as a sex positive feminist. Maybe my definition is simplistic, but I define it as being a feminist who is supportive of sexual self-expression, whatever you're into.

What are your views on Sex Work, BDSM, Pornography, Stripping, Kinky Things, Casual Sex, etc? Do you believe that if a woman engages in one or more of those things (which is not necessarily to imply that I mean that they're all on the same level of ethics or safety), even consensually, that it can sometimes be harmful for all women? Do you think that some feminists have a reasonable case that one or more of those things are wrong and that women probably shouldn't engage in them, even if they want to?

I consider myself a sex positive feminist pretty much along the lines that Alceste laid out. I think the most obvious reason is I like sex. But maybe there's a less obvious reason too. I've long been distrustful of any ideology that denies the legitimacy of consensual sexual expression. Sex seems to me such a vital part of life that I think denying it is suspect. Almost on a par with denying or failing to affirm life.

At the moment, I would like to address one of the things you mention, stripping, because I've spoken about it on this forum so extensively elsewhere. I think that, to me at least, it can sometimes be a beautiful thing, even an emotionally liberating thing, but I have more qualms about it than I usually mention. Those qualms are focused on how it is typically practiced. All to often, I think, the environment, performances, and audience are not conducive to much of anything that is to me beautiful, that helps reconcile me to my sexuality, or that helps liberate my emotions and sexual feelings. To the extent that's the case, I don't see much value in it for me. Nevertheless, I would be opposed to banning it. I think stripping can be consider a form of "speech", in something like legal terms, and ought to be "protected".

Now, I don't wish to engage, in this thread, in a debate over whether or not stripping should be banned. But solely in this case to illuminate my thoughts about that I will mention two arguments in favor of banning stripping that I've often enough heard.

The first argument is along these lines: It's wrong to buy or sell sex, stripping is the sale and purchase of sex, therefore stripping is wrong, and thus should be banned. I don't buy into that argument because I don't believe it's wrong to buy or sell sex.

The second argument is along these lines: Stripping encourages people to sexually objectify women, sexually objectifying women is harmful to women, stripping is therefore harmful to women, and thus should be banned. I find this second argument more cogent than the first, but here my objection is with the final conclusion itself -- "thus stripping should be banned." In a nutshell, I suspect stripping no more nor less encourages people to sexually objectify women that do many other things we tolerate as a society. For instance, some of the book industry, much of the entertainment industry, and perhaps most of the fashion industry seem to me at least to encourage people to sexually objectify women more or less to the extent that stripping might. So, I believe if we were to be consistent, and if we were to ban stripping, we should ban those things too. There might be a reason to single out stripping, but if there is one I am as yet unaware of it.

 

[Penumbra]

I have just realized that I am a sex positive feminist(didn't know the title existed. Wiki can be very enlightening sometimes. )
I see no problem with the sex industry; casual, kinky or vanilla sex; BDSM; pornography, stripping or the like. I believe sexual expression to be liberating after years of "wham, Bam, Thank you Ma'am." The idea that he's only out to get his and screw you if you even try to finish once he's done.
Vanilla sex is good but try to get kinky or role play in bed and you're a bad person making women look bad? Huh?
We're all for pro-choice except in the bedroom. Say what? (That one blows my mind.)
We can walk around in our underwear, walking down the street, daring someone to call us a ****, but heaven forbid we strip down to our skivvies to pay our way through college. WTF??

Sometimes I just don't get people.

I consider myself a sex-positive feminist.

To clarify though, when you said, "I see no problem with the sex industry; casual, kinky or vanilla sex; BDSM; pornography, stripping or the like.", I'm not 100% sure what you meant. Were you saying that you really have no problem with the sex industry or pornography as those industries currently are?

 

[Rakhel]

I consider myself a sex-positive feminist.

To clarify though, when you said, "I see no problem with the sex industry; casual, kinky or vanilla sex; BDSM; pornography, stripping or the like.", I'm not 100% sure what you meant. Were you saying that you really have no problem with the sex industry or pornography as those industries currently are?

Well, I'm not sure if I can explain it properly. Maybe I need to be more clear in what I want to say.
I don't see pornography, prostitution, or stripping as degrading if done at the woman's consent.
Forced _______ is another matter entirely but I'm not sure you are wanting to discuss that. Forced is not degrading, it's dehumanizing.

 

[Alceste]

What are your views on Sex Work, BDSM, Pornography, Stripping, Kinky Things, Casual Sex, etc? Do you believe that if a woman engages in one or more of those things (which is not necessarily to imply that I mean that they're all on the same level of ethics or safety), even consensually, that it can sometimes be harmful for all women? Do you think that some feminists have a reasonable case that one or more of those things are wrong and that women probably shouldn't engage in them, even if they want to?

I don't view any of those things as inherently harmful or destructive, theoretically speaking, but in practice our sex industry tends to exaggerate and exacerbate the sexism of our still fairly misogynistic culture. I don't think trying to eradicate the sex industry is the answer though. I believe if we eradicate sexism and misogyny in general, our culture will still be reflected in the way we hump, and the type of humping the free market will finance, but it will be more rewarding and psychologically healthy for all involved.

Basically it's low on my radar. Not only are other people's sex lives kind of a trivial thing to be concerned about, but sexual impulses and preferences are also the most intractable and least susceptible to rational persuasion.

As always, I believe that tending to the soil is the only way to grow a beautiful garden. Pruning can only get you so far.

 

[Titanic]

I don't view any of those things as inherently harmful or destructive, theoretically speaking, but in practice our sex industry tends to exaggerate and exacerbate the sexism of our still fairly misogynistic culture. I don't think trying to eradicate the sex industry is the answer though. I believe if we eradicate sexism and misogyny in general, our culture will still be reflected in the way we hump, and the type of humping the free market will finance, but it will be more rewarding and psychologically healthy for all involved.

Basically it's low on my radar. Not only are other people's sex lives kind of a trivial thing to be concerned about, but sexual impulses and preferences are also the most intractable and least susceptible to rational persuasion.

As always, I believe that tending to the soil is the only way to grow a beautiful garden. Pruning can only get you so far.

I agree with this.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I think everyone already knows I am not sex positive

 

[Penumbra]

Well, I'm not sure if I can explain it properly. Maybe I need to be more clear in what I want to say.
I don't see pornography, prostitution, or stripping as degrading if done at the woman's consent.
Forced _______ is another matter entirely but I'm not sure you are wanting to discuss that. Forced is not degrading, it's dehumanizing.

I think everyone here is against forced anything, so I'm considering that a given. I mean everything in the thread to be about things that are consensual.

Personally, I think pornography and prostitution tend to be pretty degrading in practice. They're not exactly careers that people usually aspire to, sometimes people fall back on them when there's nothing else, and they have substantial risk. Some studies have shown pornography to be harmful to those that watch it too, by consistently showing aspects that are not generally real in practice.

 

[Penumbra]

I think everyone already knows I am not sex positive

Can you define what you mean by sex-positive, and describe why you're not? Out of the things listed so far, (Sex Work, BDSM, Pornography, Stripping, Kinky Things, Casual Sex), which subset of those things are you morally against? All?

As a possibly related set of questions, I see your signature has a quote by Andrea Dworkin that says, “You think intercourse is a private act; it's not, it's a social act. Men are sexually predatory in life; and women are sexually manipulative. When two individuals come together and leave their gender outside the bedroom door, then they make love.”

Do you believe that men are sexually predatory and women are sexually manipulative, and if so, what precisely does that mean in your view? Personally, I don't think I would want my bf to leave his gender outside the door, but maybe you could describe how you interpret that and what it would mean in practice.

 

[dawny0826]

How do you define-sex positive feminism?

Do you consider yourself a sex-positive feminist, or do you not?

I define sex-positive feminism as the support of a woman's right to embrace her sexual freedom and to express without oppression.

I am a sex-positive feminist from the perspective that I support a woman's right to embrace and act upon her sexual freedoms, within of course, the auspices of that which is legal and does not harm another person. Consensual and lawful acts are a-okay by me.

I accept that there are women who enjoy their station in professions that others may blanket label as demeaning such as pornographic arts, nude arts (and all that would encompass) and legal prostitution. And I don't criticize fetish-type sexual endeavors as I respect a woman's right to explore her sexuality and express as she feels fit.

I am comfortable with my own sexuality and enjoy expressing what I am comfortable with.

Another important component I think, of sex-positive feminism, would be opposing genuine exploitation and abuse within these same arenas and also the mindset that a woman couldn't enjoy her job as a stripper or as an adult film star. Part of feminism, in general, is accepting that women can be strong, intelligent and capable of making these types of choices for themselves without regret.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I am not sex positive for all the reasons I have stated around this forum.
I am not sex positive because I am not an advocate for sexual servitude in the form of the sex industry, I believe prostitution is inherit to an oppressive society and exists because of racial, class, and female oppression.
The big clue of the meaning of the quote is in "You think intercourse is a private act; it's not, it's a social act"
She is talking about how our sexuality is socially constructed, that we are taught how to be sexual and how to use our sexuality as men and women. By gender she means social constructs of gender.

 

[Penumbra]

I am not sex positive for all the reasons I have stated around this forum.
I am not sex positive because I am not an advocate for sexual servitude in the form of the sex industry, I believe prostitution is inherit to an oppressive society and exists because of racial, class, and female oppression.

I'm not sure I've really followed all of your posts on this matter around the forum. I've seen some posts on pornography and stripping. If you want to, this thread could be used to summarize what it is that you're for or against.

The big clue of the meaning of the quote is in "You think intercourse is a private act; it's not, it's a social act"
She is talking about how our sexuality is socially constructed, that we are taught how to be sexual and how to use our sexuality as men and women. By gender she means social constructs of gender.

So would you say that Dworkin is saying that the way most other people have sex is wrong, and that there is a right way to do it?

If you'd like to elaborate, I'm still interested in the question of what you (or possibly her) believe it would mean in practice for people to leave their genders outside the bedroom door.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I'm not sure I've really followed all of your posts on this matter around the forum. I've seen some posts on pornography and stripping. If you want to, this thread could be used to summarize what it is that you're for or against.


So would you say that Dworkin is saying that the way most other people have sex is wrong, and that there is a right way to do it?

If you'd like to elaborate, I'm still interested in the question of what you (or possibly her) believe it would mean in practice for people to leave their genders outside the bedroom door.

No she is not saying most people have sex wrong, she is saying sexuality is socially constructed like "female clothing", or "feminine hobbies" "feminine jobs" or "feminine behaviour"
I think she means it would be freely given, consensual, free from gender constructs and neither dominating or submissive.

 

[Penumbra]

No she is not saying most people have sex wrong, she is saying sexuality is socially constructed like "female clothing", or "feminine hobbies" "feminine jobs" or "feminine behaviour"
I think she means it would be freely given, consensual, free from gender constructs and neither dominating or submissive.

Well I would agree that categories like "female clothing" (other than the shape, since bodies are different), "feminine hobbies", and "feminine jobs", are unnecessary, and to a significant extent the idea of "feminine behavior" is also something to be discarded.

I also agree with the freely given and consensual parts of sex, but I'm unclear about what it would be mean to be free of gender constructs, compared to what it would be like with gender constructs.

As far as domination/submission, I'm not sure if that truly follows any gender constructs because gender can kind of go either way on those. I can imagine how some types of feminists may find consensual female sexual submissiveness to be sort of an image of real patriarchal dominance in society, but when there are a lot of cases where women are the ones playing the dominant role during a time of intimacy, I'm not sure how Dworkin and others would view that, and what it would mean to them.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Well I would agree that categories like "female clothing" (other than the shape, since bodies are different), "feminine hobbies", and "feminine jobs", are unnecessary, and to a significant extent the idea of "feminine behavior" is also something to be discarded.

I also agree with the freely given and consensual parts of sex, but I'm unclear about what it would be mean to be free of gender constructs, compared to what it would be like with gender constructs.

As far as domination/submission, I'm not sure if that truly follows any gender constructs because gender can kind of go either way on those. I can imagine how some types of feminists may find consensual female sexual submissiveness to be sort of an image of real patriarchal dominance in society, but when there are a lot of cases where women are the ones playing the dominant role during a time of intimacy, I'm not sure how Dworkin and others would view that, and what it would mean to them.

It would still mean the same thing, free from hierarchy, free from domination and submission.

 

[Penumbra]

It would still mean the same thing, free from hierarchy, free from domination and submission.

But I guess the question is, if dominance/submission seems to go either way with the genders, what relation does it have with gender roles at all?