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Sexual Orientation, Part 1

Pah

Uber all member
Source - Evolutions Rainbow by JoanRoughgarden, 2004, University of California Press, pages 245-248

SEXUAL ORIENTATION

If outside behavior matches inside morphology, then gay and lesbian people may have unique bodies. If string players have special brain parts for left-handed fingering, and race jockeys special genes for a short physique, then perhaps people of same-sex sexuality have special brain parts and/or genes for sexuality too. The search for biological aspects of sexual orientation often confuses sexuality with transgender expression.

GAY BRAINS

Remember the three rice-grains of nerve cells in the preoptic/hypothalamus area at the base of the brain? These grains, called SDNPOA, BSTc, and VIP-SCN, are sexually dimorphic in humans. VIP-SCN size seems to align with sexual orientation in males. I bet you're guessing that gay males have a female-sized VIP-SCN. Nope. Gay males have an even bigger VIP-SCN than straight males, which is in turn bigger than the VIP-SCN of females. So much for the belief that gay men have female brains!(1) Specifically, straight males have about 2,500 cells, and females about 1,000 cells in this approximately 0.25 cubic millimeter cluster.(2) Gay males have a volume of VIP-SCN I.7 times as large, and with 2.1 times as many cells, as that of straight males.(3)
Another possible difference between gay and straight men comes from an unconfirmed study of a fourth and rarely mentioned rice-grain, the tiniest of all -a cluster of cells in the hypothalamus called INAH3. In heterosexual men, this grain averages 0.1 cubic millimeters; in heterosexual women, 0.05 cubic millimeters; and in gay men, also 0.05 cubic millimeters. This tiny feature in gay male brains has been singled out as matching that in women.(4) Thus gay males are closer to females in this rice-grain (INAH3), but farther from females in the other (VlP-SCN).
The brains of lesbian women appear to differ from those of straight women. Recall that men produce fewer clicking sounds in their internal ears than women do (see chapter 12). Lesbian and bisexual women produce fewer clicking sounds in their ears than straight women do, but more than men do.(5) Thus lesbian and bisexual women are intermediate between straight women and men in this regard. Indeed, ear clicking can change in an adult as a result of taking hormones. A transgendered woman who began taking estrogen prior to her sex reassignment surgery developed the ear clicking. So ear clicking does not necessarily say anything about how brain structure is organized.(6)
All in all variation in the many rice-grains of nerve cells shows that brains vary with sex, gender identity, and sexual orientation. Further analysis of brain states may reveal as many differences among people's brain as among people's faces.

GAY FAMILIES

Did Dad go fishing? Do you go fishing? Did Mom bake cookies? Do you bake cookies? Lots of traits run in families, like hobbies and styles of food preparation. Like hair color and eye color. Hobbies and cooking styles reflect shared environment; hair and eye color, shared genes. Being gay and lesbian runs in families too. Does shared sexual orientation in families reflect shared environment or shared genes, or both? The answer isn't clear. Here are some clues.
If a man is straight, there is a 4 percent his brother will be gay, the same percentage as in the general population. If a man is gay, the likelihood increases fivefold, to 22 percent. Whether a man is straight or gay has no statistical effect on whether his sister will be straight or lesbian.(7) These figures show that gay men cluster in families but do not say whether this stems from shared genes or a shared environment. Similarly, if a woman is lesbian, her sister is about twice as likely to be lesbian, but whether a woman is lesbian has a very small or undetectable statistical effect on whether her brother is gay or straight.(8) Gay men and lesbian women cluster independently.
Comparing identical and fraternal twins suggests some genetic component. In a 1991 study, 52 percent of identical male twins were both gay, while only 22 percent of fraternal twins were both gay.(9) In a 1993 study, 65 percent of identical male twins were both gay, and 29 percent of the fraternal twins were both gay.(10) Similarly, a 1993 study reported that 48 percent of identical female twins were both lesbian, and only 6 percent of fraternal twins were both lesbian.(11)
The studies just cited come from the United States. A 1992 British study, which looked at males and females together, found that 25 percent of identical twins were both homosexual, but only 2.5 percent of fraternal twins were homosexual.(12) A 1995 Australian study used a different method.(13) Instead of inviting twins to participate by placing advertisements in magazines and other sources likely to be seen by gay readers, the study used a preexisting list of twins. Based on a strict definition of whether twins could be scored as both being gay, the investigators reported that 20 percent of the identical male twins were both gay, 0[pah: zero] percent of the fraternal male twins were both gay, 24 percent of the identical female twins were both lesbian, and 11 percent of the fraternal female twins were both lesbian. .
The studies repeatedly show that identical twins are at least twice as likely both to be homosexual as fraternal twins. The chance that identical twins will both be gay ranges from about 25 percent to 50 percent, depending on the study, and is decidedly less than 100 percent. Thus, even though a genetic component may be present, other, presumably environmental factors account for 50 to 75 percent of the story.
Although comparisons between identical and fraternal twins suggest a genetic component in homosexuality, the possibility remains that identical twins are raised more similarly to one another than fraternal twins are, and that identical twins associate more closely and encounter more similar experiences while they are growing up than fraternal twins do. Further investigation of a genetic component should look at data from identical twins raised apart, because these dat will show the effects of shared genes in the absence of a common environment.
A 1986 study located six pairs of identical twins who were raised apart and had at least one member who was ay or lesbian. In all four female instances, one member was lesbian and the other straight. In one of the male instances, both members were gay-in fact, they didn't know of each other's existence until they happened to meet in a gay bar where people had been mistaking them for each other. In the other instance of identical male twins raised apart, one member was bisexual until age nineteen and then became exclusively gay, whereas the other was homosexual between ages fifteen and eighteen, then later married and regarded himself as straight. In this instance, both members exhibited at least partial same-sex sexual orientation. (14) Thus the data on sexual orientation in twins reared apart are perhaps suggestive of a possible genetic component for gay male sexuality, but much less so for lesbian sexuality .
Nonetheless, an important contrary fact remains. The 1991 study mentioned above also showed that an adopted brother of a gay man is twice as likely to be gay (11 percent) as an adopted brother of a straight man (5 percent). So unless the adoptive parents are somehow selecting babies likely to become gay, something about the environment into which the adopted child is placed is contributing to sexual orientation as much as any genes are.(15)
Substantial evidence points to both genetic and environmental components in the development of same-sex sexuality. No one who pushes one factor to the exclusion of the other can be correct.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Ms. Roughgardens's References for the preceding post.

1. D. Swaab and M. Hofman, 1995, Sexual differentiation of the human hypothalamus in relatio.p to gender and. sexual orientation, Trends in Neuroscience 18:264-70; D. Swaab, L. Gooren, andM. Hofman, 1995, Brain research, gender, and sexual orientation,J. Homosexuality 28:283-3̊1; D. Swaab and M. Hofman, 1990, An enlarged suprachiasmatic nucleus in homosexual men, Brain Res. 537:141-48.
2. This difference is manifest from ten to thirty years of age. See: D. Swaab, 1995, Development of the human hypothalamus, Neurochemical Research 5:509-19, esp. fig. 4.
3. Results based on a comparison of brains from eighteen homosexual males between twenty-two and seventy-four years of age who died of AIDS with the brains of ten heterosexual males between twenty-five and forty-three years of age who also died of AIDS. See: Swaab, Gooren, and Hofman, 1995, Brain research, gender, and sexual orientation, esp. fig. 3.
4. See: S. LeVay, 1991, A difference in hypothalamic structure between heterosexual and homosexual men, Science 253:1034-37, esp. fig. 2.
5. D. McFadden and E. Pasanen, 1998, Comparison of the auditory systems of heterosexuals and homosexuals: Click-evoked otoacoustic emissions, Proc. Nat. Acad. Sci. (USA) 95:2709-13.
6. D. McFadden, E. Pasanen, and N. Callaway, 1998, Changes in otoacoustic emissions in a transsexual male during treatment with estrogen, J. Acoust. Soc. Am. 104:1555-58.
7. R. Pillard and J. Weinrich, 1986, Evidence of familial nature of male homosexuality, Arch. Gen. Psychiatry 43:808-12.
8. J. Bailey and D. Benishay, 1993, Familial aggregation of female sexual orientation, Am. J. Psychiatry 150:272-77; J. Bailey and A. Bell, 1993, Familiality of female and male homosexuality, Behav. Genetics 23:313-22; M. Pattatucci and D. Hamer, 1995, Development and familiality of sexual orientation in females, Behav. Genetics 25:47-20.
9. J. Bailey and R. Pillard, 1991, A genetic study of male sexual orientation, Arch. Gen. Psychiatry 48:1089-96.
10. F. Whitam, M. Diamond, and J. Martin, 1993, Homosexual orientation in twins: A report on sixty-one pairs and three triplet sets, Arch. Sexual Behavior 22:187-206.
11. J. Bailey, R. Pillard, M. Neale, and Y. Agyei, 1993, Heritable factors influence sexual orientation in women, Arch. Gen. Psychiatry 50:217-23.
12. M. King and E. McDonald, 1992, Homosexuals who are twins: A study of forty-six probands, Brit. J. Psychiatry 160:407-9.
13. J. Bailey and N. Martin, 1995, A twin registry study of sexual orientation, paper presented at the annual meeting of the International Academy of Sex Research, Provinceton, Mass., 1995.
14. E. Eckert, T. Boouchard, J. Bohlen, and L. Heston, 1986, Homosexuality in monozygotic twins reared apart, Brit. J. Psychiatry 148:421-25.
15. Bailey and Pillard, 1991, A genetic study of male sexual orientation
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Substantial evidence points to both genetic and environmental components in the development of same-sex sexuality. No one who pushes one factor to the exclusion of the other can be correct.
Thanks for the post, Pah. This requires me to think re-think my understanding that homosexuality is decisively determined by genetic causes. I wasn't aware of how large a role is played in it by environment. Still, it doesn't seem like there is any concious choice to be homosexual. At least, none of my homosexual friends has ever said to me something like, "At thirteen, I consciously decided to become homosexual". What they emphasize is that they discovered they were homosexual -- not that they decided to become homosexual. So, even if environmental factors play a big role in determining who is or isn't homosexual, I think conscious choice is not of great significance.
 

Paraprakrti

Custom User
Sunstone said:
Thanks for the post, Pah. This requires me to think re-think my understanding that homosexuality is decisively determined by genetic causes. I wasn't aware of how large a role is played in it by environment. Still, it doesn't seem like there is any concious choice to be homosexual. At least, none of my homosexual friends has ever said to me something like, "At thirteen, I consciously decided to become homosexual". What they emphasize is that they discovered they were homosexual -- not that they decided to become homosexual. So, even if environmental factors play a big role in determining who is or isn't homosexual, I think conscious choice is not of great significance.

One may not have consciously decided, "I think I am going to be gay". Perhaps it was a situation where the person had a homosexual experience that led to the consideration that he/she might be comfortable being gay. Then at this point it is even more comfortable for him/her to reason, "I was always gay, now I am just realizing it", than to think, "ok, I'm gay now, even though before I was not."

Actually, no one is really homosexual or heterosexual. The desire to feel companionship is not defined or confined to one's sexual attraction. The sexual preference of that essential desire for companionship is ultimately a reaction of one's personal sense of identification; and it is this sense of identification that results from one's personal experience, i.e.: one that is homosexual in nature. Coming from a spiritual perspective I would say that this sense of identification is false. It is not actual quality of the self, but rather, is a perverted reflection that consciousness has upon the surrounding, external world. And of course, this applies to heterosexuality, not just homosexuality.

That is my take on it anyway...
 

Pah

Uber all member
linwood said:
Thanks Pah.

I think I`ll go ahead and buy the book.

:)

You're entirely welcome. You find many other interesting side issues - homosexuality in animals, transgendered sexuality, refutation of one of Darwin's key points, etc.

Enjoy it!

-pah-
 

Pah

Uber all member
One may not have consciously decided, "I think I am going to be gay". Perhaps it was a situation where the person had a homosexual experience that led to the consideration that he/she might be comfortable being gay. Then at this point it is even more comfortable for him/her to reason, "I was always gay, now I am just realizing it", than to think, "ok, I'm gay now, even though before I was not."

Actually, no one is really homosexual or heterosexual. The desire to feel companionship is not defined or confined to one's sexual attraction. The sexual preference of that essential desire for companionship is ultimately a reaction of one's personal sense of identification; and it is this sense of identification that results from one's personal experience, i.e.: one that is homosexual in nature. Coming from a spiritual perspective I would say that this sense of identification is false. It is not actual quality of the self, but rather, is a perverted reflection that consciousness has upon the surrounding, external world. And of course, this applies to heterosexuality, not just homosexuality.

That is my take on it anyway...

Well, it is an opinion - unfortunetly it has no science behind it and refuted by the science provided by the author of the book.

-pah-
 

Ardhanariswar

I'm back!
One may not have consciously decided, "I think I am going to be gay". Perhaps it was a situation where the person had a homosexual experience that led to the consideration that he/she might be comfortable being gay. Then at this point it is even more comfortable for him/her to reason, "I was always gay, now I am just realizing it", than to think, "ok, I'm gay now, even though before I was not."

Actually, no one is really homosexual or heterosexual. The desire to feel companionship is not defined or confined to one's sexual attraction. The sexual preference of that essential desire for companionship is ultimately a reaction of one's personal sense of identification; and it is this sense of identification that results from one's personal experience, i.e.: one that is homosexual in nature. Coming from a spiritual perspective I would say that this sense of identification is false. It is not actual quality of the self, but rather, is a perverted reflection that consciousness has upon the surrounding, external world. And of course, this applies to heterosexuality, not just homosexuality.

That is my take on it anyway...
um, its just sexual. i dont know. perhaps i may find a parntership with a woman. im open to anything. i cant control who i fall in love with, it just happens.
 

linwood

Well-Known Member
On the flip side no one makes a conscience decision to be hetero either.

I think our culture places too much importance on how or why someone holds a certain sexuality.

I tend to believe we aren`t born with any preordained sexual preference but simply a drive to procreate(lust/sexual excitement).

Like many things in life certain tastes appeal to some more than others.

I just find it difficult to believe my inclination for Praline & Cream ice cream is genetically inherent.
:)

I will buy the book, maybe I`ll learn something.
 

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
Gerani1248 said:
um, its just sexual. i dont know. perhaps i may find a parntership with a woman. im open to anything. i cant control who i fall in love with, it just happens.

Agreed, Gerani. I've always wondered about orientation... Up until now, I've only been physically attracted to males. Mentally and spiritually, I've been attracted to both genders, though, so does this mean that if my soulmate would happen to be a girl, I would be attracted to her physically as well? Or would that simply never enter the relationship? Hmm...
 

Paraprakrti

Custom User
What I will agree with concerning this thread...

Is that there is something in the biology of people that makes them more susceptible (maybe better to say 'receptive') to homosexual attraction. I can accept that. I would say that it is material experience that triggers that "gene", or what have you, into the conscious consideration of a homosexual lifestyle. This is of course my opinion on the matter based on all of the facts I have seen thus far. So, just like the thread article, I will not completely throw out the idea that homosexuality is determined by something in the biology of the person, as well, I will not throw out the idea that homosexuality is dependent on personal experience. Both are factors. But both factors are nevertheless irrelevant to the transcendental knowledge of the soul, which is of course the remedy for the suffering of both the heterosexual and the homosexual person. Of course, I wouldn't promote this if I didn't have personal experience of it. And I will not accept that others lack this wonderful capacity to understand and live in knowledge of the transcendental soul in it's eternal relationship to the Absolute... I am not that special.
 

Pah

Uber all member
Paraprakrti said:
What I will agree with concerning this thread...

Is that there is something in the biology of people that makes them more susceptible (maybe better to say 'receptive') to homosexual attraction. I can accept that. I would say that it is material experience that triggers that "gene", or what have you, into the conscious consideration of a homosexual lifestyle. This is of course my opinion on the matter based on all of the facts I have seen thus far.

You still haven't got the idea that there is no choice - susceptible and receptive are throwbacks to personal choice and that is completely rejected in the material I posted.


So, just like the thread article, I will not completely throw out the idea that homosexuality is determined by something in the biology of the person, as well, I will not throw out the idea that homosexuality is dependent on personal experience.

Your definition of "nurture" is at odds with the scientific understanding of the term. Nurture is not personal experience in the sense of individual choice. It is the history of the emotional, learning, and behavior patterns imposed on an individual from the environment - those around the individual. Nurture is mother's care or the lack of it over which the individual has no control. It is the teacher with a curriculum and agenda and personality that is assigned to the individual. No choice here in "nurture" or in "genetics".



Both are factors. But both factors are nevertheless irrelevant to the transcendental knowledge of the soul, which is of course the remedy for the suffering of both the heterosexual and the homosexual person. Of course, I wouldn't promote this if I didn't have personal experience of it. And I will not accept that others lack this wonderful capacity to understand and live in knowledge of the transcendental soul in it's eternal relationship to the Absolute... I am not that special.

More importantly, your case is irrelevant to anyone else. You got to where you are by the very same forces of "nature" and "nurture".

-pah-
 
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