Callisto
Hellenismos, BTW
And, lest I forget, the 25th century will usher in an undiscerning admiration for 20th-century music
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Shakespeare too sexual for Florida’s schools?
- Thread starter SomeRandom
- Start date
And, lest I forget, the 25th century will usher in an undiscerning admiration for 20th-century music
Yazata
Active Member
The Florida law prohibits inclusion of "sex education"/porn (whether gay or straight or whatever) in early elementary grades curricula. If I recall correctly, kindergarten through third grade. Shakespeare is typically taught in high-school English classes, so the law wouldn't seem to be relevant.
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That’s what I thought. So the decision to seemingly dictate the curriculum of Shakespeare didn’t make sense to me.
Unless they just are trying to get teens enthused about good old Shakes. In which case I’d applaud their effort lol
And where Shakespeare took his plot from other sources, and where the protagonists (Juliet especially) from such were older - the girl probably being 16 - but then this (R & J) apparently gets passed down as being historical evidence for much younger relationships in those days. But where the evidence differs.
Interesting
I know Billy didn’t have original plots to his plays. But what’s this about stealing a Juliette and making her younger?
I feel like I’ve heard about this in passing conversations lol
One source for this:
British Library
The tragic plot of Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet (1595-96) was by no means original. It was based on a famous folktale which appeared in many different versions in 15th- and 16th-century Europe. Arthur Brooke’s 3,020 line poem, The Tragicall Historye of Romeus and Iuliet (1562), is the first English translation of that tale, and it served as a key source for Shakespeare.
Both Brooke and Shakespeare preface their works with sonnets (14-line poems) which summarise and foreshadow the tragic fate of the lovers. Unlike Shakespeare, however, Brooke also gives his ‘tragicall’ poem a gloomy, cautionary message. He warns us that if we give in to ‘lust’, and neglect the advice of our parents, we will hasten to an ‘unhappye deathe’ like these ‘unfortunate lovers’ (‘To the Reader’, pp. iiv–iiir).
Shakespeare squeezes Brooke’s nine-month story into only five days, intensifying its impact. He also reduces Juliet’s age, heightening concerns that she is too young ‘to be a bride’ (1.2.11). While Brooke’s Juliet is scarcely 16 (line 1860, p. 52v), Shakespeare’s is not yet 14 (1.2.9; 1.3.12).
He possibly made her younger to make it more outrageous.
Here is an article that deals with the origins of both graham crackers and corn flakes:
The Creepy Origins Of Graham Crackers And Corn Flakes
"Patience, n. A minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." —Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary In A Nutshell Masturbation,knowledgenuts.com
And i am sometimes known to have cornflakes for breakfast... Never worked on me ;-)
rosends
Well-Known Member
I once interviewed a teacher for a job. She taught middle school and said she was teaching R+J. I asked her how she covered the rape jokes in the first scene. She didn't know there were any. Sadly, many who teach the text don't really understand the text.
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One source for this:
British Library
www.bl.uk
The tragic plot of Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet (1595-96) was by no means original. It was based on a famous folktale which appeared in many different versions in 15th- and 16th-century Europe. Arthur Brooke’s 3,020 line poem, The Tragicall Historye of Romeus and Iuliet (1562), is the first English translation of that tale, and it served as a key source for Shakespeare.
Both Brooke and Shakespeare preface their works with sonnets (14-line poems) which summarise and foreshadow the tragic fate of the lovers. Unlike Shakespeare, however, Brooke also gives his ‘tragicall’ poem a gloomy, cautionary message. He warns us that if we give in to ‘lust’, and neglect the advice of our parents, we will hasten to an ‘unhappye deathe’ like these ‘unfortunate lovers’ (‘To the Reader’, pp. iiv–iiir).
Shakespeare squeezes Brooke’s nine-month story into only five days, intensifying its impact. He also reduces Juliet’s age, heightening concerns that she is too young ‘to be a bride’ (1.2.11). While Brooke’s Juliet is scarcely 16 (line 1860, p. 52v), Shakespeare’s is not yet 14 (1.2.9; 1.3.12).
He possibly made her younger to make it more outrageous.
To be precise, Brooke freely translated the Historia novellamente ritrovata di due nobili amanti (Newly found story of two noble lovers) written by Luigi da Porto in 1530. The historical context, the characters are very, very verisimilar. The prince was actually Bartolomeo della Scala, lord of Verona. The Montague and the Capulet ( Montecchi and Cappelletti) were two aristocratic families who used to fight against each other between the 1300 and the 1304, because the ones were Guelphs, the others were Ghibellines. And Bartolomeo repeatedly tried to bring peace, in vain.
Of course nobody can prove Romeo and Juliet really existed. Yet Luigi da Porto testifies he found a story from the XIV century which seems likely.
And by the way, Shakespeare himself clarifies that the purpose of the tragedy is to show how hatred, how wars, how feuds destroy love, the divine, godly force we call romance or romantic love. Love is such a strong and powerful force that brought peace, in the end. It's stronger than hatred.
See what a scourge is laid upon your hate,
That heaven finds means to kill your joys with love;
And I, for winking at your discords too,
Have lost a brace of kinsmen. All are punished.
The name of the Prince is Escalus because that's the Latin name of the Dynasty of the Scala. Aka Scaligeri
Altfish
Veteran Member
What ever happened to the GOP's "Freedom of Speech" cries; does it only apply when Trump is involved?
Whatever the reasons as to why Shakespeare chose to have a younger age, it was not reflective of the times - at least in England at the time. I have posted this before:
From the book by Peter Laslett, The World We Have Lost - Further Explored, he cites 1007 parish records in England between the years 1619 and 1660 concerning marriage licences - so a few decades after the play was written. Of the 1007, the ages given, and numbers, were as follows - age 13 (1), 14 (0), 15 (4), 16 (12), 17 and over (990). This was apparently reflected elsewhere too, so it can be seen that marrying young was not that common (less than 2% being 16 or younger), even if the age of consent was much lower then (actually, age 12).
A spokesperson for the Florida Department of Education sent a statement to the Tampa Bay Times on Aug. 8 saying, “The Florida Department of Education in no way believes Shakespeare should be removed from Florida classrooms. In fact, eight works by Shakespeare are included in the sample text list within the (state) Standards for English Language Arts, including ‘Hamlet,’ ‘Macbeth’ and ‘Romeo and Juliet.’”Okay sorry for weird title, but this story has confused the hell out of me since I heard about it.
Apparently schools, in order to comply with the “don’t say gay bill” (?) DeSantis has enacted for schools, many schools are now heavily editing what parts of Shakespeare is being taught. Only allowing certain sections of his plays to be read for class, due to how bawdy they often are (which they absolutely are.) Which seems beyond dumb to me, but maybe that’s because my uncle (an English teacher) heavily drove it into my head to laud Shakes lol
I’m not American so I can’t make heads nor tails of this one guys. It just seems so….bizarre to me.
Help me out here, guys.
The Observer view on Ron DeSantis, Shakespeare and sex: ‘Man, proud man… Most ignorant of what he’s most assur’d’ | Observer editorial
Application of the Florida governor’s ‘don’t say gay’ law has led to the banning of plays such as Romeo and Juliet in some schoolswww.theguardian.com
Post Distorts Florida School Policy on 'Romeo and Juliet' - FactCheck.org
Doesn't seem to be a real story.
We are speaking of the XIV century, three centuries before Shakespeare.
It sounds like an eternity...actually.
So 14 for Juliet...seems pretty accurate.
On that point it should be recognized that Shakespeare did not invent the story of Romeo and Juliet. He simply adapted an older story. Maybe he felt he had to keep certain details.
But as I cited, in the source material that he apparently used (Brooke), Juliet was supposed to be nearly 16, not 14. And you'll have to provide evidence for marrying much younger in earlier centuries.
Well, as I cited earlier, he changed the age rather than keeping such.
PoetPhilosopher
Veteran Member
O wonder!
One source for this:
British Library
The tragic plot of Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet (1595-96) was by no means original. It was based on a famous folktale which appeared in many different versions in 15th- and 16th-century Europe. Arthur Brooke’s 3,020 line poem, The Tragicall Historye of Romeus and Iuliet (1562), is the first English translation of that tale, and it served as a key source for Shakespeare.
Both Brooke and Shakespeare preface their works with sonnets (14-line poems) which summarise and foreshadow the tragic fate of the lovers. Unlike Shakespeare, however, Brooke also gives his ‘tragicall’ poem a gloomy, cautionary message. He warns us that if we give in to ‘lust’, and neglect the advice of our parents, we will hasten to an ‘unhappye deathe’ like these ‘unfortunate lovers’ (‘To the Reader’, pp. iiv–iiir).
Shakespeare squeezes Brooke’s nine-month story into only five days, intensifying its impact. He also reduces Juliet’s age, heightening concerns that she is too young ‘to be a bride’ (1.2.11). While Brooke’s Juliet is scarcely 16 (line 1860, p. 52v), Shakespeare’s is not yet 14 (1.2.9; 1.3.12).
He possibly made her younger to make it more outrageous.
They even had Romeo and Juliet on The Brady Bunch, although Marcia was so insufferable as Juliet that they kicked her out of the play.
Marcia, Marcia, Marcia!
If I recall correctly, Luigi da Porto never mentions Juliet and Romeo's age.
I remember the story... it's a very short novel. Basically Romeo is described as the handsomest young man ever. And he goes to see her under her balcony many times; one snowy night, he tells her that he wants to sleep with her.
And she replies that she will sleep with him only if he marries her.
So they get married and sleep together many nights...
By the way...if Romeo was that handsome, Juliet was no fool...she caught him as a prey before he could fall in love with someone else.
That's the reason of the wedding.