sharia and honour killing

[asa120]

Dont try to change it thise it ittttttttttttttt

 

[asa120]

Who wright wikipedia muslims,,,,?...??

 

[gnostic]

Again, I would ask you to ask one of the Muslim members in this thread, to define honor killing for you, because you clearly don't know what it mean, and you don't trust me to define it for you.

Since you don't trust what I write, explaining to you again, would be pointless and waste of time.

Surely, you can trust the Muslims here to give you the proper definition?

 

[asa120]

pls save us the time and dont play inocent i saw youre posts and youre replies
you enter thise forum to trash and only to trash in islam
2 i respond 5 times and i wont repeat it again read my pervious replies and you have read the answer in my posts before you just try to mix and to change it and on top of all of that you put word that i didnt even daid like vangance and revange
* shame on you

 

[muslim-]

Which is why the questions are being posed to the Sharia ruling over honor killing. I will admit that my knowledge in Sharia is very limited, otherwise, I wouldn't put forward my questions in the OP.

I know that the Qur'an is one of the primary sources, and the Sunnah being the other. But I also know you are only partly right, because the Sharia goes beyond just those two primary sources, which you have already try to give an example, that something new and unknown at the time of the writings of the Qur'an and Sunnah. Something new would required consensus among the scholars, who were versed in Islamic jurisprudence.

Apart from that, I wouldn't know what the laws within the Sharia, or whether something like honor killing is covered in the Sharia. Hence the questions.

Something new would isnt related to consensus. Consensus is a different topic. But you're right what is totally new would be considered a matter of ijtihaad, which is a jurist giving personal opinion, based on general rules derived from Shariah texts, such as not harming others (based on Sunnah "La Dharara Wala Dhirar) , which would be applicable in everything from assault to real estate disputes, or smoking cigarettes.

However, these would be issues that arent mentioned at all in Shariah. Killing is. And its considered the top sin one could do (apart from sins that would take them outside the circle of Islam). There cannot be giving of any personal opinion outside of Shariah texts. And when the issue is not at all in Shariah (smoking cigarettes for example) the opinion still must be based on Shariah rules derived from Qur'aan and Sunnah.

Theres also a general rule in Usool Al Fiqh, which is that everything is permissible unless mentioned otherwise. "Otherwise" can be from general texts like the ones I mentioned in smoking cigarettes etc, or directly forbidding it, as in the case of murder, stealing, lying etc.

So honor killing is clearly forbidden. Even if a murderer deserved to be executed, its still not permissible for people to carry out punishments on their own, that would make society a total mess. Things must be done through courts and government only.

That said, theres a point id like to mention here, which is the victim being killed for being raped. In the Middle East, ive never heard of this happening. What happens sometimes (which they'd call an honor killing) is that the woman gets pregnant outside the circle of marriage, or cheats on her husband in adultery and gets pregnant, then the brother or husband would try to "clean" the familys honor by killing her. So usually in the Middle East this is what is meant by honor killing.

I dont know about other regions, but I noticed that sometimes in discussions people would think that a raped woman is killed. So they'd discuss the topic with two different understandings of "honor killing". This is not how its understood in the Middle East at all. Rather raped women ( like the one in Libya raped by Qaddafi forces) usually get proposals from so many people as a form of offering her support.. usually their way of saying its not their fault and theres no shame in it.

 

[gnostic]

Ok, asa120, I might have put words in your mouth about the vengeance thing, so I am sorry.

But your definition about honor killing is still wrong.

Honor killing is not preventive measure to stop attackers from raping women or girls. It is about one family member killing another family member for alleged dishonor to the family. Most often, the victims of honor killings are women and girls. And the dishonor could be anything other than rape, like a girl who refuses to marry much older man, or she refuse to dress certain fashion (like not wearing hijab), or she talk to male, alleged adultery, or any other number of things.

There is nothing honorable about murder.

Have you read any of the posts from other Muslims?

Read them. Learn from them. Understand what honor killing is.

 

[Badran]

pls save us the time and dont play inocent i saw youre posts and youre replies
you enter thise forum to trash and only to trash in islam
2 i respond 5 times and i wont repeat it again read my pervious replies and you have read the answer in my posts before you just try to mix and to change it and on top of all of that you put word that i didnt even daid like vangance and revange
* shame on you

I think you're misunderstanding what this thread is addressing. The term "honor killing" is given to certain incidents, that doesn't include what you seem to be talking about (defensive measures). This thread is specifically addressing that. The definition gnostic posted from Wikipedia, thats what this thread is addressing.

That, as i think we'd both agree, is not allowed in Islam. What you're talking about however is a different thing altogether. He's not making this definition up or quoting biased sources, this is how the word is actually used. He's not trying to lump anything else under the word neither, just those particular incidents.

 

[asa120]

hey there i expalin it to him 5 times there is honor killing
i explaine it to him 5 times
i explian what he name honor killing is not honor killing is islam but he maybbe in other non muslims ,societys but he does not understand
bardan and muslim pls read my defnintions to honor killing and tell me if thy are wrong
thise is the defnition of sharia

it e cases of self defence that when it arrive to death that killing is lawful and it lawful in international laws
but he change it and he try to change even the words that i say

and for gnostic research next time before you accuse sharia whith such e crims
research what place and what society if it s islamique or not

 

[gnostic]

Honor killings have no place in Islam, period; they are culturally driven.

Culture can have several different definitions.

Often, people associated culture with ethnicity or people of geographical locations, like taste in art, music, literature and fashion, cultural food cuisine (eg me being Chinese, racially, I often eat rice at home with other meal, like many other Asian nationalities).

However, I'd view culture as being defined as a way of life, which can define one's thought, behavior, value, custom or belief. Culture can link to a group or organisation (like religion for example).

I always view religion as a culture, because religion can change our sense of value, behavior and thinking. Like non-religious cultures, religion can also have effect on our tradition, custom and belief, and become a way of life.

With religions, like Christianity and Islam, spread beyond the geographical boundary can either change society's culture to have Christian or Islamic culture, or religion can integrate itself into existing geographical traditional culture. Other religions, like Buddhism and Hinduism, have also spread beyond India, and have become international religions.

Religion used to be tied to a specific location and ethnic group, like Egyptian religion was confined to the land of Egypt, Babylonian religion to Mesopotamia, and Greek religions to Greece and Aegean regions. They have specific beliefs and customs so they were different in many ways.

A recognisable religious culture of Christianity, for example, can be going to church every Sunday. Or people who convert to Islam, may change their lifestyle, like the way you dress, praying 5 times a day where as before you may not pray before or you may pray less or more than that. Both religions have specific holidays and customs, which they celebrate in more traditional fashions.

I have a mixed cultural background, like so many other people who migrated to another country at a young age. Both my parents were born in China but they migrated into Australia. The only tie to my Chinese background that stand out would be food. Food like rice with other dishes usually prepared in traditional manner. However, I can eat and do other food.

And though I may "look" Chinese, I certainly don't dress like one. Almost every other aspect of my life, is Western in culture. My taste in music, literature and art is Western.

And though, I do call myself agnostic, I do have a jumble mix of religious values that come from Buddhism, Taoism and Christianity. But it is not actually belief value, but a philosophical value that I have accepted. When I was growing up, I was often surrounded by friends who were Christians. Despite being nearly converted as a Christian, twice in my late teen, there was something that was holding me back from being one - this belief in God.

Gee, I've gotten sidetracked. Ok, let me get back to honor killing and religion.

Perhaps, you are right, ssainhu, honor killing may be a cultural driven or cultural phenomena, tied to specific places and customs of the people. But somehow religion and culture got mix together.

The Muslims who committed honor killing may be culturally of specific ethnic or nationality, but the reasons or the motives for committing such a crime, have religious undertone. Do you understand what I mean?

Perhaps, I should give you an example or two.

Apostate. A person, who was born to a family that come from long lines of generations of Muslims, decided to leave Islam. To everyone else in the family, it would be stain to the family's name and honor, and to their mind, bring shame to them in the community they live in. So someone in the family decided to take matter in his own hand, and killed the apostate.

As you can see from this example, the honor killing is done for religious conviction and not out of cultural circumstance. The motive is religious, even though it is not "Islamic". I am not saying that the Qur'an in any way promote honor killing. But in certain circumstances, the cause of honor killing may (and I'll repeat, MAY) have motive because of the family's relationship to religion have been or allegedly tarnished by one family member.

But this thread is not about apostate. It is about what the Sharia say about honor killing.

 

[gnostic]

In any case, honor killing is murder. And I would agree with you all, that it is not in the Qur'an or Islamic.

My problem is why are the authorities and courts in many countries are reluctant to arrest and charge people for honor killings? The police often look the other way when it comes to honor killing, and the crimes often go unreported.

 

[muslim-]

asa120, I think you're Arab, right?

In western cultures, they dont define honor killing as you might do. They usually mean

بشكل حصري, يقصدون جرائم الشرف. والمتعلقة بالاعراض.

واحيانا يعتقدون خطأ, ان ما يسمى بجرائم الشرف, تعني ان المغتصبة يتم قتلها غسلا للعار. فعندهم سوء فهم لفكرة العار ايضا. ولذلك كثيرا ما يكون هناك سوء فهم من الجانبين, خاصة عندما يلعب الاعلام دور في الموضوع بطريقة غير صادقة

أما بالنسبة لسوء الفهم احيانا سأحاول التطرق لهذا في الرد اللاحق

This is why sometimes two people would agree on certain concepts, but disagree on the way terms are used. Many in Muslim countries have the concept of "honor" attached to many different things. Which is why they usually dont like the way the term "honor killing" is used in western media. Especially when they say the rape victim is killed. That sounds ridiculous to most, as usually rape victims are honored. Like The one in Libya who was raped by Qaddafi loyalists, she recieved hundreds of marriage proposals as a their own way of showing support. And this is a conservative tribal region we're talking about.

Beyond terminology, I think most in this thread are in agreement.

 

[muslim-]

@ gnostic, theres about 52 Muslim countries I think (I may be wrong on the number but anyway), and "honor killing" although certainly exists, its usually in a context picturing it as something that happens all the time, in any place Islam exists, and make it sound like it happens more than say, "regular" murder cases. This isnt accurate. They even almost have it as something exclusively related to Muslims! Which also isnt true at all. It happens among Muslims and non Muslims too in conservative societies around the world.

In the very few Muslim countries in which it happens to an extent that the whole society hears about them in newspapers etc. They do arrest immedietly. Actually, usually the one who killed would just go to the police station himself. He doesnt normally run away or anything. Also the police don't at all "look away". And authorities are certainly not reluctant. These are all false images the media tries to portray, and is very far from not only truth, but from honesty.

Generally in cases of murder (with minor differences between countries), murderers are executed if the family of the victim doesnt forgive. But when an immediate family member does, naturally, they say "hey we lost one, we dont want to lose another".

When it comes to "honor killings", Jordan is the only country I can think of, in which the parliament actually passed a law that allows the judge to give lighter sentences (I think 5-10 years maybe?) , as opposed to say, life in prison or execution, if she did commit adultery (and that itself isnt always easy to prove). And it doesnt happen a lot, and when it does, its usually in very conservative areas.

Theres nothing more to it really, so whether one accepts this law in this particular country or not, it certainly isnt the image that the media portrays at all, when talking about rape victims being killed, connecting the issue to Islam etc. The way the picture it is just ridiculous.

Also - im not from that region so I wouldnt know- theres conservative tribal areas in Pakistan, that the government doesnt control. They make their own tribal laws, which some to me sound really ridiculous too. Especially they dont rule by Islam to begin with (actially their rulings are bluntly against Islamic teachings) and arent controlled by the government. So using such a "sample" to connect to Muslims isnt really honest reporting.

Like I said im not from that region and I dont know much about it, but to me it sounds just like talking about some "weird" practices among some tribes somewhere in Africa (whether Pagan, Muslim, Christian or whatever). Then the media takes it and connects it somehow to other practices in , say, a small conservative town of Sikhs or Hindus in India, and then to another practice that happens to be controversial in Morocco (or whatever country) who are Muslim, then connecting all of those practices to Muslims.

While the only real connection between all those, is a wife cheating on her husband, or a girl running away with a guy, then the rest is completely different. But people dont think about details, they just get a mental image of "those people over there" and thats it. And usually "over there" means they are Muslim.

Not many realize that theres 1.7 billion Muslims, in many countries and they belong to many different cultures.

The media this way, doesn't really give "news", it just gives a mental image about those people "over there", and its the mental images that sticks. The mental image, is the simple delivered negative message, not what really happens, because not many remember or even know all the details.

When the negative image is created, its hard to reverse, especially without actually visiting Muslim countries and cities, and realizing how different Dubai is vs Casablanca vs Amman vs Riyadh vs Cairo vs Islamabad.

In a similar way, only different, it reminds me of the image a Muslim I talked to had about the US. Since the US in his mind represents western culture, and western culture represents free easy sex. He really thought you could just meet a girl and have sex with her if you could talk her into it. Then when discussing STDs he said something about the US being where most cases of AIDS exist. Whats ironic is that sex in his country is much more easier to get than it is in the US, but would he really get it?

If I had argued further, hed probably say something about some institute that is dedicated to support HIV+ patients, and use that as proof for his argument of how its so prevalent. Just as some would mention an "honor killing" article in the newspaper in a small town somewhere to support the idea that its so prevalent. Its just not like that.

No matter what I said trying to correct the picture and view things in context, he just wouldnt get it. So he too, I think, would need to visit a western country, learn the language etc, to know that the mental image he has is so far from the truth its kinda funny.

It just reminds me of how different yet how similar we (humans) are in so many ways. Sorry for the long post.

 

[gnostic]

They even almost have it as something exclusively related to Muslims! Which also isnt true at all. It happens among Muslims and non Muslims too in conservative societies around the world.

I don't and won't deny it happen elsewhere, among non-Muslim population. From what understand the largest reported cases in the non-Muslim majority countries happened to be in Brazil and India. In Brazil, the majority of religious group is Catholics, while in India, it is Hinduism that is the most prevalent religion, with Islam being the 2nd largest at 13%.

In any case, that what the topic is not about honor killing happening elsewhere, but what the Sharia say about it.

Not all the cases involved in infidelity in marriage, because some of it involved fathers, uncles or brothers, who kill a girl or young woman for disobedience, like converting to another religion.

In Australia, there have only been a few reported cases, and that the one that stand out to me, was some years (either in New South Wales or Queensland) when a Muslim girl tried to convert to Christian. She survive the attack by her father, but her mother wasn't so lucky, and died protecting her.

A girl can simply be walking unescorted, among her friends, and be killed by one of her relatives, as have happened in Jordan, murdered by her father.

In many of the Middle Eastern, Central Asian and South Asian countries, honor killing is not being treated as murder, and police and judiciary systems in those countries are unwilling to act against honor killings.

It just reminds me of how different yet how similar we (humans) are in so many ways. Sorry for the long post.

You don't have to apologise for long posts, because I do it too. It would only be problem if you just have one long paragraph; had you done that I wouldn't have given up reading it. You did the right thing by breaking up posts into smaller paragraphs.

 

[asa120]

soo why you try to trash in islam when you know that it hapens in non islamique countrys
shame on you ,, you try to point the crime not only to muslims but to islam
you try to confuse what god say with another type of practice when you know it not from islam
and for other muslims dont debate him or argue with him just try to see his posts

 

[gnostic]

soo why you try to trash in islam when you know that it hapens in non islamique countrys

Good grief. *sigh*

Because this topic is about Sharia and honor killing. If you seriously having trouble with the topic, then don't participate. It is that simple.

First, you have misunderstand my topic and what honor killing mean, then you go around personally insult me with something like:

 

[asa120]

i explain it to you5 times but you misunderstand youre topic
dont throw words before you researsh more

 

[gnostic]

I may have misunderstood your replies, because your English is terrible and difficult to read. And if I had misunderstood what you are saying, then I'm sorry.

However, I haven't really done anything wrong with my thread, except misunderstanding your posts, because it is not easy to read.

As far as I am concern, my definition and sources weren't wrong.

As Badran have addressed to you (in post #27), you have misunderstood the nature of my topic.

He's not making this definition up or quoting biased sources, this is how the word is actually used. He's not trying to lump anything else under the word neither, just those particular incidents.

The problem is you don't understand the subject, because I believe that have you jump into the thread not knowing what "honor killing" is. And plus, you've misunderstood my posts simply because you don't understand the topic, and went on the defensive.

You definition to honor killing is also wrong. It is not about "self defence", and it is not about prevention of rapes. I have already given you my definition and I also shown you definition found in Wikipedia.

If you think I am wrong about the definition then please go find your definition on honor killing and show to me. Don't try to define it yourself because your English is poor. Find a source, then we can go from there.



ps

Calling me "loser", is totally uncalled for. I don't expect you to apologise, nor do I want an apology from you (because I am not easily insulted), but I should warn you that you are breaking the forum rule. You are still new member. So it is just friendly caution, you are free to debate the topic, but do not insult anyone.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

In any case, honor killing is murder. And I would agree with you all, that it is not in the Qur'an or Islamic.

My problem is why are the authorities and courts in many countries are reluctant to arrest and charge people for honor killings? The police often look the other way when it comes to honor killing, and the crimes often go unreported.

Like so many other injustices in our world Gnostic here is another example. That is all. You have already agreed it has nothing to do with Islam so frankly I have no idea what is being discussed here.

 

[gnostic]

Like so many other injustices in our world Gnostic here is another example. That is all. You have already agreed it has nothing to do with Islam so frankly I have no idea what is being discussed here.

If I had to repeat what the topic is about, then I'll just have to repeat myself again.

What does the Sharia law have to say on the matter (honor killing)?

You and I agree that honor killing is "murder". Why do some disagree with it being labelled as murder?

I don't just want what the Qur'an only say or what they did in the past (Caliphate). I am more interested in how the laws being implemented, TODAY.

There seemed to be different flavours of Sharia being used in the modern judiciary systems, as well as being different flavours being used in different countries. The implementation on federal level is different from the local or tribal levels.

But no matter what levels or what (Muslim-majority) countries your in, the authorities are extremely reluctant to arrest, prosecute and convict those who commit honor killings, as murders. That being the case, these Muslim authorities, communities and families seemed to condone such actions.

Have the Sharia law being corrupted?

You may say there are no real (or true) Sharia being used, because there are no longer Caliphate. I am not saying that you actually agree with this statement, but I have come across

I simply think there is wrong with some societies or countries that strongly believe in severely punishing or executing people who commit adultery, fornication, blasphemy, women not wearing the some forms of headdresses, etc, and yet they seem willing to look the other way when it come to honor killing.

 

[tariqkhwaja]

What does the Sharia law have to say on the matter (honor killing)?

It's haram. Unjust killing of a human is like killing of entire mankind.

You and I agree that honor killing is "murder". Why do some disagree with it being labelled as murder?

Because some people are bad and/or ignorant.

I don't just want what the Qur'an only say or what they did in the past (Caliphate). I am more interested in how the laws being implemented, TODAY.

There seemed to be different flavours of Sharia being used in the modern judiciary systems, as well as being different flavours being used in different countries. The implementation on federal level is different from the local or tribal levels.

But no matter what levels or what (Muslim-majority) countries your in, the authorities are extremely reluctant to arrest, prosecute and convict those who commit honor killings, as murders. That being the case, these Muslim authorities, communities and families seemed to condone such actions.

Sorry to say but that is true to a small extent. Or at least I should say the louder scholars of Islam (who are few in number but loud) often say that.

Have the Sharia law being corrupted?

You may say there are no real (or true) Sharia being used, because there are no longer Caliphate. I am not saying that you actually agree with this statement, but I have come across

I simply think there is wrong with some societies or countries that strongly believe in severely punishing or executing people who commit adultery, fornication, blasphemy, women not wearing the some forms of headdresses, etc, and yet they seem willing to look the other way when it come to honor killing.

Yep. It is such a contradiction. There are several Islamic rulings that even the most hardline "Muslim" countries don't implement. For example rulings on interest in banking (which is very much practiced in Saudi Arabia). Rulings on the punishment for lying (which so many politicians in Iran and Saudi do without remorse) which is strictly forbidden in Islam. And much more ... it only goes to show whether Islam is their real motivation or just personal egos.