shia

[yousaf]

what do you think shia are? muslims or non muslims

 

[Sahar]

Generally speaking, Muslims insha' Allah!

 

[yirme]

theoretically, they are followers of islam. but the actions of each person who claims to be shia would better tell whether or not they, on an individual level, submit to the will of God.

peace

 

[TashaN]

Many sunni scholars have issues with Shi'a scholars because they believe that the shi'a scholars are misleading the shi'a followers, and even they said of they are not muslims. Nevertheless, when it comes to the shi'as as individuals, they are muslims inshAllah.

 

[Peace]

They are Muslims.

 

[AbuQuteiba]

Their scholars are kuffaar. Concerning the general masses, of the rawaafidh (shee'a), if proof is established (to them) that they are upon baatil (falsehood), then they are no longer Muslim, Wallaahu a'lam.

To understand this, one must first understand that in Islaam, innovations are categorized into two categories. Bid'ah mukaffirah (an innovation that expels one from Islaam) and bid'ah muffassiqah (an innovation that leads to transgression). An example of a bid'ah mukkafirah is tawaaf (circumambulation) around other than the Ka'bah, or the du'aa' (supplication) of other than Allaah. And an example of a bid'ah mufassiqah, is celebrating the Prophet's (sallaa Allaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) birthday.

The raafidha (shee'a), are upon so many bida' mukkafirah, it's not even funny. Some of them are:
-they believe the Qur'aan is not yet complete
-they believe the sahaaba are kuffaar, or fussaaq (transgressors) depending on the sect.
-they believe that the mothers of the believers, like 'Aaisha (radhiyalllaahu 'anhaa) are zaaniyat (fornicators)
-they have their own Hajj (pilgrimage) to Karbalaa'
-they believe that Abu Bakr (radhiyallaahu 'anhu) unjustly took the khilaafa from 'Ali (radhiyalllaahu 'anhu).

And much more. Wallaahul musta'aan. Wallaahu a'lam.

 

[yirme]

Their scholars are kuffaar.

peace,
this is a great example of something that would be highly frowned upon in islam.
to wrongly call someone a kaffir makes you a kaffir. if any shia scholar is not a kaffir (and there are many who are not), then you have just become a kaffir, if you were not already. may God forgive you.

wa salaam

 

[yousaf]

a scholar of shia is normally aperson who understands the beliefs of shias and teaches them. a person who teaches wrong beliefs . under normal circumstances teaches against sunnis thhey are called kaafirs , so abu qutaiba is right in what he said and you are right in some parts of what you said

 

[AbuQuteiba]

peace,
this is a great example of something that would be highly frowned upon in islam.
to wrongly call someone a kaffir makes you a kaffir. if any shia scholar is not a kaffir (and there are many who are not), then you have just become a kaffir, if you were not already. may God forgive you.

wa salaam

When the late Sheikh Muhammed ibn 'Uthaymeen-rahimahu Allaah- was asked about the shi'a, if they were Muslim, he said: "Their scholars, are not. The general masses are, inshaa'Allaah". Some scholars believe that all shi'a are kuffaar, based on their opinion that proof has been established to the whole shi'i community that what they are upon, is falsehood.

It was stupid of me to mention that, in my first post, as if i was the one to give that ruling.

Masha'Allaah. The Prophet-salla Allaahu 'alayhi wa sallam- said: "Whosoever accuses another of kufr, kufr shall fall upon one of them". This hadeeth has been explained by the scholars, Walhamdulillaah. To call another a kaafir, you must first establish three things:

1. If what you accuse the other person of is actually kufr (as in, the act itself must be proven to be kufr from the Qur'an, or Sunnah)
2. If the other person has in fact committed this kufr.
3. If the persom you accused of committing kufr has knowledge (has been told) that the act he is committing is kufr.

When speaking of the shi'i scholars, all three conditions are confirmed. And unless you know of a shi'i scholar who doesn't confirm the main shi'i beliefs, you should remain silent concerning who is and who is not kaafir.

May Allaah forgive you, as well as myself.

Wassalaamu 'alaikum.

 

[AbuQuteiba]

a scholar of shia is normally aperson who understands the beliefs of shias and teaches them. a person who teaches wrong beliefs . under normal circumstances teaches against sunnis thhey are called kaafirs , so abu qutaiba is right in what he said and you are right in some parts of what you said

Teaching against the Sunnah, or teaching wrong beliefs, isn't always enough to call someone a kaafir. The three points i mentioned, in my response, must be established first. Wallaahu a'lam.

 

[AbuQuteiba]

Just another point i would like to make clear. A lot of Muslims do not know the difference between general rulings, and specific rulings. It is very important for one to understand this concept, since it is one of the main reasons of confusion among Muslims.

There is a difference between me saying "those who say that Salaat is not obligatory, are kuffaar" and "Ahmed (for instance) is a kaafir, because he says it is not obligatory for one to pray". I know. It seems to be the same. It looks like A+B=C. But it does't work like that in Sharee'a. The difference is that, it has been established in Islam that claiming that prayer is not obligatory, is a reason for kufr. So there is no doubt that claiming that what Allaah has made obligatory, not obligatory, is a reason of kufr. But you cannot establish that Ahmed is a kaafir, because Allaah 'azza wa jal may lead him to the truth, later on.

The same goes for the topic at hand. When i say that the scholars of the shi'a are kuffaar, in general, I'm not naming anybody specific.

The only ones that have been given can make specific takfeer, are the rulers/ those in charge of the Ummah (the rulers and the scholars). Allaah 'azza wa jal said: "O you who believe! obey Allaah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among you; then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allaah and the Messenger, if you believe in Allaah and the last day; That is best, and most suitable for final determination"[4.59] .

Wallaahu a'lam. Wassalaamu 'alaikum.

 

[yirme]

a scholar of shia is normally aperson who understands the beliefs of shias and teaches them. a person who teaches wrong beliefs . under normal circumstances teaches against sunnis thhey are called kaafirs , so abu qutaiba is right in what he said and you are right in some parts of what you said

peace,
i suppose this is in the sunni section, and from a sunni standpoint, the shia scholars might be considered kaffirs by some, but i disagree and consider it prejudice and slander on a large group of people, regardless of who said it. perhaps i consider kaffir a more harsh word than other muslims. but i am weary to use it since i do not know people's intentions, i cannot read their hearts except by the will of God.
i just do not think it is appropriate to call someone a kaffir if they follow the teachings of the quran/prophets, i do not know all the shia scholars personally, but i am guessing that some follow the quran quite well. of course we are also told that in the end times there will be many wicked scholars, not limited to shia.
i need a bumper sticker that says 'wicked scholars suck'

may Allah forgive all of us from our many sins and soften our hearts to nourish the seeds of light that have been planted within us.

wa salaam

 

[yousaf]

peace,
i suppose this is in the sunni section, and from a sunni standpoint, the shia scholars might be considered kaffirs by some, but i disagree and consider it prejudice and slander on a large group of people, regardless of who said it. perhaps i consider kaffir a more harsh word than other muslims. but i am weary to use it since i do not know people's intentions, i cannot read their hearts except by the will of God.
i just do not think it is appropriate to call someone a kaffir if they follow the teachings of the quran/prophets, i do not know all the shia scholars personally, but i am guessing that some follow the quran quite well. of course we are also told that in the end times there will be many wicked scholars, not limited to shia.
i need a bumper sticker that says 'wicked scholars suck'

may Allah forgive all of us from our many sins and soften our hearts to nourish the seeds of light that have been planted within us.

wa salaam

brother are you a scholar ? borther the reason why they(shia) scholars are known as kaafir is because many of thier major beliefs contradict the teaches of the prophet

 

[Halcyon]

Forgive me, but I have been told that the only requisite for being a Muslim believing that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammed (pbuh) is his Prophet?

What else is required?

 

[AbuQuteiba]

Forgive me, but I have been told that the only requisite for being a Muslim believing that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammed (pbuh) is his Prophet?

What else is required?

Yes. But this discussion is, more or less, about what expels you from Islam. Oh, and just a correction. The translation of the first part of shahaada "Ashhadu an laa Ilaaha illaa Allaah" is "I bear witness that there is no god that deserves worship except Allaah". It's not, that there is no god but Allaah. For there are many false gods. Only one is Truth.

Wallaahu a'lam.

 

[yousaf]

Forgive me, but I have been told that the only requisite for being a Muslim believing that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammed (pbuh) is his Prophet?

What else is required?

not exactly, yes they are 2 of the main beliefs but also you have to believe in the prophets of god, his books, his angels, life after death, good and bad fate is from god etc.

 

[K.Venugopal]

Yes. But this discussion is, more or less, about what expels you from Islam. Oh, and just a correction. The translation of the first part of shahaada "Ashhadu an laa Ilaaha illaa Allaah" is "I bear witness that there is no god that deserves worship except Allaah". It's not, that there is no god but Allaah. For there are many false gods. Only one is Truth.

Wallaahu a'lam.

I quote the following from Wikipedia. When you say, "...that deserves worship except Allaah" it is obviously an interpretation as those words are not there in the original.

Arabic text:
أشهد أن لا إله إلاَّ الله و أشهد أن محمد رسول الله
Romanization:
ʾašhadu ʾan lā ilāha illā-llāh, wa ʾašhadu ʾanna muḥammadan rasūlu-llāh
English rendering:
"I bear witness that there is no god except for God (Allah), and Muhammad is the messenger of God."'
An alternative rendering is:
"I testify that there are none worthy of worship except God, and I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of God."[1]
This version constitutes an interpretation rather than a direct translation, as the words "worthy of worship" are not present in the Arabic.
A single honest recitation of the Shahadah in Arabic is all that is required for a person to become a Muslim according to most traditional schools.
In usage the two occurrences of 'ašhadu 'an (or similar) = "I testify that" are very often omitted.

 

[TashaN]

I quote the following from Wikipedia. When you say, "...that deserves worship except Allaah" it is obviously an interpretation as those words are not there in the original.

True, It's not a direct translation but an interpretation because sometimes, you can't simply translate from one language to another word by word, especially if it a rich language like arabic.

 

[AbuQuteiba]

I quote the following from Wikipedia. When you say, "...that deserves worship except Allaah" it is obviously an interpretation as those words are not there in the original.

Arabic text:
أشهد أن لا إله إلاَّ الله و أشهد أن محمد رسول الله
Romanization:
ʾašhadu ʾan lā ilāha illā-llāh, wa ʾašhadu ʾanna muḥammadan rasūlu-llāh
English rendering:
"I bear witness that there is no god except for God (Allah), and Muhammad is the messenger of God."'
An alternative rendering is:
"I testify that there are none worthy of worship except God, and I testify that Muhammad is the messenger of God."[1]
This version constitutes an interpretation rather than a direct translation, as the words "worthy of worship" are not present in the Arabic.
A single honest recitation of the Shahadah in Arabic is all that is required for a person to become a Muslim according to most traditional schools.
In usage the two occurrences of 'ašhadu 'an (or similar) = "I testify that" are very often omitted.

Thank you. I stand corrected.

 

[K.Venugopal]

True, It's not a direct translation but an interpretation because sometimes, you can't simply translate from one language to another word by word, especially if it a rich language like arabic.

Translation or interpretation, the key phrase in the Shahada apart from the two phrases (in the Sunni Shahada) 'Allah is the only god' and 'Mohammad is His messenger' is, 'I bear witness'. The Muslim or Muslim-to-be makes the claim to have witnessed the truth of the other two phrases. In reality Muslims are not witness to any objective facts about Allah and his messenger but are only expressing their own belief or faith that Allah is the only god and Mohammad is His messenger. Such being the reality, is the word ‘witness’ in translation (or interpretation) an incorrect translation (or interpretation)? If the translation is correct, haven’t Muslims (unknowingly, of course) been bearing false witness all the while?