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Shifting more towards atheism

PureX

Veteran Member
What, exactly, do you think is the meaningful difference between "I don't believe God/gods/exist" and "I don't hold to the proposition that God/gods exist?" I'm not looking for sophistry; I'm looking for a difference that means something to any ordinary person.
Ego.

No one cares what you're "holding" onto (just another word for believing). No one cares what you believe. No one cares what you don't believe about what anyone else is believing, because no one cares what they believe, either. The issue at hand is what is being proposed as the truth, and whether or not it is a valid proposition. So this isn't about YOU, or me, or anyone's beliefs or opinions or resentments against religion. It's about what is being proposed as truth, and whether or not it's a logically valid proposal. (Whether or not it's true is beyond our ability to determine.)
 
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shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Yes… wikipedia includes a politically correct statement. “Depending on the atheist” IMV, simply means that there are some people who are not really committed to the definition because if they did actually use the definition, they would have to defend their position but because of lack of empirical and verifiable evidence, they can’t… so a politically correct statement is more beneficial.

That being said, the “narrower sense” is the correct definition
You are demanding a narrow definition for subjective beliefs based on your agenda, which is the same for variations of Theism, agnosticism and whatever ism.

I have less of a problem with the atheist arguments than I do for the many conflicting Theist beliefs and the variable arguments that are based on ancient tribal scriptures without provenance and no other objective evidence,
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
atheism (n.)

"the doctrine that there is no God;" "disbelief in any regularity in the universe to which man must conform himself under penalties" [J.R. Seeley, "Natural Religion," 1882], 1580s, from French athéisme (16c.), with -ism + Greek atheos "without a god, denying the gods," from a- "without" (see a- (3)) + theos "a god" (from PIE root *dhes-, forming words for religious concepts). A slightly earlier form is represented by atheonism (1530s) which is perhaps from Italian atheo"atheist." Also compare atheous. The ancient Greek noun was atheotēs "ungodliness."
In late 19c. it was sometimes further distinguished into secondary senses: "The denial of theism, that is, of the doctrine that the great first cause is a supreme, intelligent, righteous person" [Century Dictionary, 1897] and "practical indifference to and disregard of God, godlessness."


A more politically correct definition is
I prefer more recent definitions that reflect the diversity of what people believe. Yours are kind of oldy moldy. Your extreme negative bias toward atheism is interfering with any rational perspective you may have toward those that believe differently.


Definition​

Writers disagree on how best to define and classify atheism,[7] contesting what supernatural entities are considered gods, whether atheism is a philosophical position in its own right or merely the absence of one, and whether it requires a conscious, explicit rejection. However the norm is to define atheism in terms of an explicit stance against theism.[8][9][10]

Atheism has been regarded as compatible with agnosticism,[11][12][13][14] but has also been contrasted with it.[15][16][17]

Implicit vs. explicit​

Main article: Implicit and explicit atheism
A diagram showing the relationship between the definitions of weak/strong and implicit/explicit atheism.
Explicit strong/positive/hard atheists (in purple on the right) assert that "at least one deity exists" is a false statement.
Explicit weak/negative/soft atheists (in blue on the right) reject or eschew belief that any deities exist without actually asserting that "at least one deity exists" is a false statement.
Implicit weak/negative atheists (in blue on the left), according to authors such as George H. Smith, would include people (such as young children and some agnostics) who do not believe in a deity but have not explicitly rejected such belief.
(Sizes in the diagram are not meant to indicate relative sizes within a population.)
Some of the ambiguity involved in defining atheism arises from the definitions of words like deity and god. The variety of wildly different conceptions of God and deities lead to differing ideas regarding atheism's applicability. The ancient Romans accused Christians of being atheists for not worshiping the pagan deities. Gradually, this view fell into disfavor as theism came to be understood as encompassing belief in any divinity.[18] With respect to the range of phenomena being rejected, atheism may counter anything from the existence of a deity, to the existence of any spiritual, supernatural, or transcendental concepts.[19] Definitions of atheism also vary in the degree of consideration a person must put to the idea of gods to be considered an atheist. Atheism has been defined as the absence of belief that any deities exist. This broad definition would include newborns and other people who have not been exposed to theistic ideas. As far back as 1772, Baron d'Holbach said that "All children are born Atheists; they have no idea of God."[20] Similarly, George H. Smith suggested that: "The man who is unacquainted with theism is an atheist because he does not believe in a god. This category would also include the child with the conceptual capacity to grasp the issues involved, but who is still unaware of those issues. The fact that this child does not believe in god qualifies him as an atheist."[21]

Implicit atheism is "the absence of theistic belief without a conscious rejection of it" and explicit atheism is the conscious rejection of belief. It is usual to define atheism in terms of an explicit stance against theism.[22][23][24]

For the purposes of his paper on "philosophical atheism", Ernest Nagel contested including the mere absence of theistic belief as a type of atheism.[25] Graham Oppy classifies as innocents those who never considered the question because they lack any understanding of what a god is, for example one-month-old babies.[26]

Positive vs. negative​

Main article: Negative and positive atheism
Philosophers such as Antony Flew[27] and Michael Martin[18] have contrasted positive (strong/hard) atheism with negative (weak/soft) atheism. Positive atheism is the explicit affirmation that gods do not exist. Negative atheism includes all other forms of non-theism. According to this categorization, anyone who is not a theist is either a negative or a positive atheist.

Michael Martin, for example, asserts that agnosticism entails negative atheism.[13][11] Agnostic atheism encompasses both atheism and agnosticism.[14] However, many agnostics see their view as distinct from atheism.[28][29] According to atheists' arguments, unproven religious propositions deserve as much disbelief as all other unproven propositions.[30] Atheist criticism of agnosticism says that the unprovability of a god's existence does not imply an equal probability of either possibility.[31] Australian philosopher J.J.C. Smart argues that "sometimes a person who is really an atheist may describe herself, even passionately, as an agnostic because of unreasonable generalized philosophical skepticism which would preclude us from saying that we know anything whatever, except perhaps the truths of mathematics and formal logic."[32] Consequently, some atheist authors, such as Richard Dawkins, prefer distinguishing theist, agnostic, and atheist positions along a spectrum of theistic probability—the likelihood that each assigns to the statement "God exists".[33]

Before the 18th century, the existence of God was so accepted in the Western world that even the possibility of true atheism was questioned. This is called theistic innatism—the notion that all people believe in God from birth; within this view was the connotation that atheists are in denial.[34] Some atheists have challenged the need for the term "atheism". In his book Letter to a Christian Nation, Sam Harris wrote:

In fact, "atheism" is a term that should not even exist. No one ever needs to identify himself as a "non-astrologer" or a "non-alchemist". We do not have words for people who doubt that Elvis is still alive or that aliens have traversed the galaxy only to molest ranchers and their cattle. Atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs.


 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Ego.

No one cares what you're "holding" onto (just another word for believing). No one cares what you believe. No one cares what you don't believe about what anyone else is believing, because no one cares what they believe, either. The issue at hand is what is being proposed as the truth, and whether or not it is a valid proposition. So this isn't about YOU, or me, or anyone's beliefs or opinions or resentments against religion. It's about what is being proposed as truth, and whether or not it's a logically valid proposal. (Whether or not it's true is beyond our ability to determine.)
Actually, you are quite wrong -- there are many, many people who care about what others believe or don't -- and these have been present throughout human history. Humans have been escommunicating, shunning, anathemizing and even killing others in the most horrible ways for the "wrong beliefs. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake in the Campo De' Fiori in Rome in 1600, and for what? For his beliefs. He believed, you see, that the Copernican System was a logical and valid proposition. He proposed that the stars were distant suns surrounded by their own planets, and he raised the possibility that these planets might foster life of their own. He also insisted that the universe is infinite and could have no center.

Bruno was convicted by the Church on charges of denial of several core Catholic doctrines, including eternal damnation, the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the virginity of Mary, and transubstantiation -- absolutely none of which he considered to be logical and valid propositions. But I suppose, because they are right there in front of you now, just as theism is, that you must accept them all as valid propositions, too.

And by the way, your response was sophistry. You are ignoring the fact that a valid proposition that is not an axiom, to be valid, must be supported by logic. And you are ignoring that because you know full well that you would have to assume it as an axiom in order to prove its validity.

And, for those of us who are atheists (I'm having the temerity to speak for all of us this time), here is the key point: "Whether or not it's true is beyond our ability to determine," as you put it, means that it has no reality, no ability to harm or help us, though our belief -- products of our minds -- certainly do. Everything that is real, though we may not be able to see it (like gravity or magnetic fields), but there are other ways in which they can be detected. If it is beyond our ability to detect them, then they have no reality for us at all, any more than any other fancy we might entertain in our minds.
 

McBell

Unbound
A thousand monkeys banging on the keys of a thousand typewriters is never going to result in anything by meaningless gibberish and a lot of noise. The whole point of language is to stop that from happening. To make us clarify our thoughts and illuminate each other by sharing them. The purpose of language is not to exercise our right to be dishonest, confused, egocentric idiots. That would just be a waste of the gift.
1704720351332.png
 
Atheism, in the broadest sense, is an absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities."
It is all of those things, depending on the atheist. So who are you to try and redefine it for the rest of us. You do not speak for me -- nor for my beliefs, unbeliefs, opinions or judgments. My atheism means what I SAY IT MEANS TO ME.

The alternative view is that, for anyone who can comprehend the term god at least, the positions are all functionally identical.

Someone asserting that they lack belief in gods and someone asserting that they believe no gods exist are saying the same thing using different grammatical structures and mistaking the grammatical difference for a cognitive one.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
But not "buying into" religious stories and depictions about God/god's is just being a-religious.
No it's not buying a story, period. You probably don't believe aliens crashed at Roswell, you don't buy the narrative.
You also may not buy the narrative that Romulus founded Rome and ascended to the afterlife. You don't buy into stories of Krishna appearing on earth to speak with Prince Arjuna.
You may not buy the Joseph Smith story about revelations from the angel Moroni. Each story is judged on it's own evidence, just because you don't buy Mormonism doesn't mean it's "a-religious" because some other religion can still provide good evidence.

None have, but it could happen someday.



It's not atheism.
If you feel there is no good evidence for any religion, that is atheism. Sometimes called soft atheism.



So it does not logically justify taking the position that the theist proposition is invalid (real atheism).
Which is hard atheism. I cannot prove any gods don't exist. It's likely that Zeus doesn't, same for Yahweh. And the fancy modern version using Greek theology, still probably doesn't exist.




And this is the real reason atheists don't want to acknowledge that they are atheists in the proper sense. Because all they have to justify it is their rejection of religiosity and that does not logically apply to theism.
No, they just have to tell you they find the evidence unconvincing. The evidence is terrible. Not only that, the evidence pretty much proves it's syncretic mythmaking.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I just go back to what atheism means… a faith statement because one cannot provide empirical and verifiable evidence
Then you are using a red herring because you maybe cannot engage in real world concepts, or some other reason. I cannot imagine why people cannot engage with the actual argument without telling others they are actually arguing a different argument (oddly enough, one that cannot be demonstrated). I cannot prove Romulus never existed, why would I even bother with Yahweh? I's demonstrated, like Romulus, he's probably a literary creation.

"Weak atheism, also known as negative or implicit atheism, is the belief that there is no supernatural god, but that its existence is possible. It's different from strong atheism, which explicitly denies the existence of any gods. Weak atheism is also similar to agnosticism, but weak atheism is not the same as agnosticism."

Weak atheism, also called non-theism, is the belief that none of the current versions of god/gods or anything supernatural has reasonable evidence.
In fact if you bother to study critical-history and archaeology there is incredible evidence that it's borrowed mythology.


For example, a brief overview, without going deep -

"
-During the period of the Second Temple (c.515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[47] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[47] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[48][49] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[49] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[49] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[49] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[47] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]


(Sanders, Wright, Lambert)
 

PureX

Veteran Member
No it's not buying a story, period. You probably don't believe aliens crashed at Roswell, you don't buy the narrative.
But it would be rediculous for me to claim I'm an atheist as a result. Not "buying" a religious story just makes me a-religious. Not a-theism.
You also may not buy the narrative that Romulus founded Rome and ascended to the afterlife. You don't buy into stories of Krishna appearing on earth to speak with Prince Arjuna.
You may not buy the Joseph Smith story about revelations from the angel Moroni. Each story is judged on it's own evidence, just because you don't buy Mormonism doesn't mean it's "a-religious" because some other religion can still provide good evidence.

None have, but it could happen someday.

If you feel there is no good evidence for any religion, that is atheism. Sometimes called soft atheism.
I don't care about religion. It does not define nor validate nor invalidate the theist proposition.
Which is hard atheism. I cannot prove any gods don't exist.
Atheism and theism are not about proving anything. They are about validating a truth proposition.
It's likely that Zeus doesn't, same for Yahweh. And the fancy modern version using Greek theology, still probably doesn't exist.
None of this matters.
No, they just have to tell you they find the evidence unconvincing. The evidence is terrible. Not only that, the evidence pretty much proves it's syncretic mythmaking.
Expecting to be given evidence to convince you that a religious myth is factual is a very stupid thing to expect. And it's even more stupid to reject the myth because it's mythical.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
Atheism is not the denial of the existence of God but simply a lack of belief in God. Over the last few years, I've been shifting further to the idea without real physical evidence, then everything that occurs in our thought-space is just fabricated imaginary delusions. And the only thing that is truly real is what we experience in the presence of others. Nobody denies the existence of apples. When I hold an apple in my hand I say, "apple". It's right there. I can't do that with God. As far as I can tell, God is just a word that only exists in our use of language. If people did not use the word God in sentences then God would cease to exist.

In terms of having a higher purpose and what our life means, I think our purpose is up to us to define. The most satisfaction I've ever had in my own life comes from my family, my hobbies and my crafts. The only thing that gets me out of being sad and depressed is doing some kind of hobby or craft. Developing my physical and mental skills has provided me the most satisfaction and happiness in life. Or guiding and helping my children grow up has been very satisfying.

In terms of ex-Deus Machina, I believe we are all champions of our destiny. If we soil our own beds, nobody but ourselves is responsible, and available, to clean up our mess. We are fully responsible for every single aspect of our lives. Based on human experiments, there seems to be no amount of evil God will not tolerate in order to preserve our free-will. God is always not intervening in the short term and always choosing his long term "plan", which as far as I can tell, is all just fantasy delusion only existing in our minds.

I've never been this far atheistic before in my life. Unless I have some earth shaking experience with psychedelic drugs, as far as I can tell, God is pure delusion having no basis in reality.
Atheism defines itself by what it is not, instead of what it is. A-theism versus Theism is like a-symmetrical versus symmetrical. Its existence is dependent on theism, as a way to define itself, by means of what it is not. This makes Atheism dependent on Theism, to explain itself, as the negative of that other photograph. This is quite bizarre and somewhat unique. Why define yourself by a trick mirror?

In my experience, this negative mirror image, used to practice Atheism, often extends beyond just the disbelief in gods. In this forum, many Atheists will also deny the validity of anything connected to religion, even things that would otherwise have a rational connection, if taken out of the context of the religion mirror, and looked at in a scientific way. For example, marriage between a man and woman is still the most efficient social construct, compared to all the others, inferred by all the rest needing more Big Brother Government to help compensate. This objective reality exists apart from any belief in gods, within any rational world. However, since theism made this a tradition, the anti-theist must believe in the opposite of this common sense and logic, simply because religion said so first; the mirror says so.

This tells me logic is not necessary to be an Atheist, even if they claim it is. Theist are supposed to be honest, since God is watching, so the mirror allows to do the opposite, since nobody is watching. Atheist can also believe in the irrational, as long as there no god or any extended association from any god or religion; UFO's. An Atheist sort of lives in the reflection in a carnival trick mirror, that makes the world appear upside down and reversed, with theism the image in the trick mirror. It does, at times, attempt to find its own way, where religion does not go; science. But in terms of things like morality and ethics, the mirror applies, logic or not; relative versus absolute.

Does anyone remember the Russian Collusion delusion? Ironically, the theists were less fooled than the atheists. This tells me the mirror of atheism only applies to the ethereal gods, but not to the man-made gods of this world; teen idol worship.

My belief is we have a theological instinct, due to thousands of years of humans practicing religion, with religions defining selective advantages within culture and beyond. There has been enough time to alter the human DNA; evolution and selective advantage. Theist remain true to this genetic momentum of the past, while Atheists use the same gene(s) but place them in the carnival mirror for their expression. These common genes is what connects the two like a binary star; co-dependence. Atheism formed from Christianity.

If you go to one of the, "look up your Ancestry web sites", they will analyze your DNA; for a price. They can find the migration of your ancestors over hundreds of years and even over continents. This implies some genetic changes can occur in hundred of years. When you have thousands of years, the genetic connections are deeper, and some begins to have impact on human behavioral firmware. Theism and Atheism appear to be like the binary of knowledge of good and evil, but as refections, with both having some good and some evil, since both have the same firmware. They reflect and can learn from each other, to isolate the good and evil within themselves and each other. It is easier to see the spec in your neighbors eye than the log in your own.
 
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PureX

Veteran Member
Actually, you are quite wrong -- there are many, many people who care about what others believe or don't -- and these have been present throughout human history. Humans have been escommunicating, shunning, anathemizing and even killing others in the most horrible ways for the "wrong beliefs. Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake in the Campo De' Fiori in Rome in 1600, and for what? For his beliefs. He believed, you see, that the Copernican System was a logical and valid proposition. He proposed that the stars were distant suns surrounded by their own planets, and he raised the possibility that these planets might foster life of their own. He also insisted that the universe is infinite and could have no center.
Wanting to control what other people think is not caring about what they think. It's just the opposite. It's completely ignoring what they think as being irrelevant and valueless because it distracts from or contradicts what "we" think.
Bruno was convicted by the Church on charges of denial of several core Catholic doctrines, including eternal damnation, the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, the virginity of Mary, and transubstantiation -- absolutely none of which he considered to be logical and valid propositions. But I suppose, because they are right there in front of you now, just as theism is, that you must accept them all as valid propositions, too.

And by the way, your response was sophistry. You are ignoring the fact that a valid proposition that is not an axiom, to be valid, must be supported by logic. And you are ignoring that because you know full well that you would have to assume it as an axiom in order to prove its validity.

And, for those of us who are atheists (I'm having the temerity to speak for all of us this time), here is the key point: "Whether or not it's true is beyond our ability to determine," as you put it, means that it has no reality, no ability to harm or help us, though our belief -- products of our minds -- certainly do. Everything that is real, though we may not be able to see it (like gravity or magnetic fields), but there are other ways in which they can be detected. If it is beyond our ability to detect them, then they have no reality for us at all, any more than any other fancy we might entertain in our minds.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
But it would be rediculous for me to claim I'm an atheist as a result. Not "buying" a religious story just makes me a-religious. Not a-theism.
Because weak atheism is the lack of belief in any gods in religions or such.

It cannot be asserted there is no God ever, like deism, you cannot say. Non-theist is sometimes used.



I don't care about religion. It does not define nor validate nor invalidate the theist proposition.
It doesn't have to be a deity from religion, if you have evidence of any deity and it's reasonable to the claim it could be accepted by some. It's not complex. You don't believe Joe Smith had revelations for obvious reasons. I feel the same about all religions and all claims of gods.



Atheism and theism are not about proving anything. They are about validating a truth proposition.
If you state no god exists the burden of proof is on you. If you find the evidence unconvincing you have a lack of belief. Hence, all the religions you don't believe are true. I think you are making more of this than it is for some motive.



None of this matters.
It does until you enter a different proposition, something else to believe. Random supernatural realms are not part of atheism, it's about a belief in a deity.





Expecting to be given evidence to convince you that a religious myth is factual is a very stupid thing to expect.
And yet people think they have evidence and it's all crap evidence.


And it's even more stupid to reject the myth because it's mythical.
Do you not reject the Thetans in Scientology despite Ron Hubbard saying they are real?
Do you not reject all other 10,000 gods because they are obviously myths? You think the Greek pantheon may be real? Do you think it's stupid to reject Lord of the Rings, a great myth, because it's mythical? You are talking in circles.

This all seems like you are trying to defend a belief by being obtuse. And you haven't made an argument, you are being cryptic, something is up. All gods are still claims without good evidence.
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Then you are using a red herring because you maybe cannot engage in real world concepts, or some other reason. I cannot imagine why people cannot engage with the actual argument without telling others they are actually arguing a different argument (oddly enough, one that cannot be demonstrated). I cannot prove Romulus never existed, why would I even bother with Yahweh? I's demonstrated, like Romulus, he's probably a literary creation.

We aren’t talking about Romulus. Anyone can create a scenario that supports their thoughts but has nothing to do with their thought.

a-theism is the belief that there isn’t a god, plain and simple

"Weak atheism, also known as negative or implicit atheism, is the belief that there is no supernatural god, but that its existence is possible. It's different from strong atheism, which explicitly denies the existence of any gods. Weak atheism is also similar to agnosticism, but weak atheism is not the same as agnosticism."

This isn’t weak atheism… this is an agnostic.

You can’t believe their is no supernatural god but believe it is possible for their to be a god and still be an atheist.

agnostic /ăg-nŏs′tĭk/

noun​

  1. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
  2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.
  3. One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The issue at hand is what is being proposed as the truth, and whether or not it is a valid proposition.

The proposition is "god exists".
The theist agrees with / believes the proposition. That is what makes them theists.
The atheist does not. That is what makes them atheist.

That's it. Stop trying to make it more complicated then it is.
 
This isn’t weak atheism… this is an agnostic.

You can’t believe their is no supernatural god but believe it is possible for their to be a god and still be an atheist.

Yes you can. On all kinds of issues we have beliefs that we think are true, even while accepting it is possible they may be wrong.

I believe no gods exist (on balance of probabilities). I still accept there is some chance I might be wrong about this, but it's what I believe.

To be certain no god exists would be a statement of knowledge, not simply belief, and to be an atheist does not require me to know no gods exist.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Atheism defines itself by what it is not, instead of what it is. A-theism versus Theism is like a-symmetrical versus symmetrical. Its existence is dependent on theism, as a way to define itself, by means of what it is not. This makes Atheism dependent on Theism, to explain itself, as the negative of that other photograph. This is quite bizarre and somewhat unique. Why define yourself by a trick mirror?
I believe this is a cynical irrelevant projection view of atheism. It is not advisable to try and define what and why people believe from your biased perspective.
In my experience, this negative mirror image, used to practice Atheism, often extends beyond just the disbelief in gods. In this forum, many Atheists will also deny the validity of anything connected to religion, even things that would otherwise have a rational connection, if taken out of the context of the religion mirror, and looked at in a scientific way. For example, marriage between a man and woman is still the most efficient social construct, compared to all the others, inferred by all the rest needing more Big Brother Government to help compensate. This objective reality exists apart from any belief in gods, within any rational world. However, since theism made this a tradition, the anti-theist must believe in the opposite of this common sense and logic, simply because religion said so first; the mirror says
It is obvious when some one rejects the existence of Gods. miracles, and supernatural events one will also reject anything connected to theistic religions This may be true of agnostic believers who are indifferent or reject Theistic religions, Though atheists and agnostics may belong to the organized institution such as Unitarian Universalist Church.
so.

This tells me logic is not necessary to be an Atheist, even if they claim it is. Theist are supposed to be honest, since God is watching, so the mirror allows to do the opposite, since nobody is watching. Atheist can also believe in the irrational, as long as there no god or any extended association from any god or religion; UFO's. An Atheist sort of lives in the reflection in a carnival trick mirror, that makes the world appear upside down and reversed, with theism the image in the trick mirror. It does, at times, attempt to find its own way, where religion does not go; science. But in terms of things like morality and ethics, the mirror applies, logic or not; relative versus absolute.
Those that believe in any religion or belief system consider their belief logically honest. Your foolish egocentric mirror analogy does not apply to any belief system
Does anyone remember the Russian Collusion delusion? Ironically, the theists were less fooled than the atheists. This tells me the mirror of atheism only applies to the ethereal gods, but not to the man-made gods of this world; teen idol worship.

My belief is we have a theological instinct, due to thousands of years of humans practicing religion, with religions defining selective advantages within culture and beyond. There has been enough time to alter the human DNA; evolution and selective advantage. Theist remain true to this genetic momentum of the past, while Atheists use the same gene(s) but place them in the carnival mirror for their expression. These common genes is what connects the two like a binary star; co-dependence. Atheism formed from Christianity.

If you go to one of the, "look up your Ancestry web sites", they will analyze your DNA; for a price. They can find the migration of your ancestors over hundreds of years and even over continents. This implies some genetic changes can occur in hundred of years. When you have thousands of years, the genetic connections are deeper, and some begins to have impact on human behavioral firmware. Theism and Atheism appear to be like the binary of knowledge of good and evil, but as refections, with both having some good and some evil, since both have the same firmware. They reflect and can learn from each other, to isolate the good and evil within themselves and each other. It is easier to see the spec in your neighbors eye than the log in your own.

PHFFFFFT! Plop!
 

Kenny

Face to face with my Father
Premium Member
Yes you can. On all kinds of issues we have beliefs that we think are true, even while accepting it is possible they may be wrong.

I believe no gods exist (on balance of probabilities). I still accept there is some chance I might be wrong about this, but it's what I believe.

To be certain no god exists would be a statement of knowledge, not simply belief, and to be an atheist does not require me to know no gods exist.
That’s the definition of agnostic.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
The alternative view is that, for anyone who can comprehend the term god at least, the positions are all functionally identical.

Someone asserting that they lack belief in gods and someone asserting that they believe no gods exist are saying the same thing using different grammatical structures and mistaking the grammatical difference for a cognitive one.

Not exactly.

Take a court case. The proposition being debated there is the supposed guilt of the defendend.
If the case is weak, the jury might rule "not guilty". This does not mean that they believe the defendend is innocent. It just means that the case being brought forward was not enough to convince them that the defendend is guilty.

For all practical intents and purposes, off course, the result is that the defendend will be treated as if he is innocent: he will not have to go to jail, will not get fined, will be free to travel etc. But innocense has not been established at all. Nor has it been debated or discussed. While the defended is treated as if he is innocent, he still COULD be guilty. There just wasn't sufficient evidence to draw that conclusion.

We do the same with claims of existence. For all practical intents and purposes, we assume non-existence until existence is sufficiently demonstrated.

We do not do this out of conviction, but out of practical necessity.
When you cross the road, you assume that there is no invisible truck coming at ya to run you over.
If sufficient evidence is provided for such a truck to convince you, then you will not cross the road.
Without sufficient evidence of such, you will not not cross the road "just in case". You will assume for all practical intents and purposes that there is no such thing. So you cross the road.

You don't make this assumption because you have evidence of "no such truck".
Instead you make this assumption because the proposition of "yes such truck" fails to provide sufficient evidence to believe it.
 
That’s the definition of agnostic.

There are several definitions of agnostic.

For me an atheist is someone who believes no gods exist, and an agnostic is someone who believes we have insufficient grounds to hold either the belief gods exist or the belief gods do not exist.

Reserving the label atheist for only those who insist they know gods don't exist would certainly not reflect any current or historical common usage afaik.
 
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