Should A Mock Crucifixion Be Punishable As Blasphemy In a Court Of Law?

[Buttercup]

Official can't ban Madonna mock-crucifixion

AMSTERDAM (Reuters) - The Dutch justice minister has rejected a call by a Christian party to stop Madonna staging a mock-crucifixion in concerts in Amsterdam.

Minister Piet Hein Donner said he understood the concerns of the SGP party which asked the minister to prevent Madonna performing the scene in concerts Sunday and Monday, but said only a court could take action against the show.

"It is understandable that Christians feel offended by the crucifixion act that Madonna performs," he said in remarks posted on the SGP website. "It is a reprehensible way to attract attention at the cost of the deepest feelings of many people."

"That does not mean that this act can be classified as blasphemy," he said. "Judgment over whether the event in question constitutes blasphemy is not up to the justice minister, but up to prosecutors and ultimately a judge."

The youth wing of the Christian party, the SGP, said they were deeply disappointed by Donner's response and said they would launch a suit against Madonna for blasphemy after her concerts in Amsterdam, part of her worldwide "Confessions Tour."

"The SGP youth wing regrets that the freedom of expression is declared as being so holy that insulting the Son of God is part of that freedom," it said in a statement.

The Vatican accused Madonna of blasphemy and provocation when she staged the mock crucifixion in Rome last month.


Does this surprise you coming from a supposedly liberal country where prostitution is legal but the expression of blasphemy is not?

 

[c0da]

It does surprise me a bit. I think it's daft that a court should be able to take legal action against the whole cross thing she does in her performance, even if Madonna is a worn out has-been who'll do anything for attention.

 

[Halcyon]

Who says she is copying the crucifixion of Jesus? Thousands were crucified under the Romans.

Has she specifically stated that she is re-enacting the crucifixion of Jesus? Because if she hasn't then there is no case.

Plus, Luke 12:10 states "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."

Thus, she should be forgiven anyway.

 

[Djamila]

The SGP certainly had no problems with freedom of expression during the Muhamed cartoons fiasco. They should be charged with hypocracy, not Madonna for blasphemy.

 

[kai]

The SGP certainly had no problems with freedom of expression during the Muhamed cartoons fiasco. They should be charged with hypocracy, not Madonna for blasphemy.

the SGP area small so called fundamentalist Christian party their action does not surprise me and it will get nowhere. talking of hypocracy i have seen some pretty evil cartoons featuring "the devilish jew" in the middle east.

 

[Djamila]

I've yet to see any depicting Moses, though. And I've yet to see people in the Middle East have a passionate response to any of the hundreds of cartoons that depict ordinary Arabs in a negative light.

 

[Mick in England]

By all means let's have mock crucifictions to remind people what Jesus went through, but let's make it authentic with no detail spared -

CRUCIFIXION Medical report by Dr. C.Truman Davis
The Roman legionnaire steps forward with the flagrum (or flagellum) in his hand. This is a short whip consisting of several heavy, leather thongs with two small balls of lead attached near the ends of each. The heavy whip is brought down with full force again and again across Jesus' shoulders, back, and legs. At first the thongs cut through the skin only. Then, as the blows continue, they cut deeper into the subcutaneous tissues, producing first an oozing of blood from the capillaries and veins of the skin, and finally spurting arterial bleeding from vessels in the underlying muscles. The small balls of lead first produce large, deep bruises which are broken open by subsequent blows. Finally the skin of the back is hanging in long ribbons and the entire area is an unrecognizable mass of torn, bleeding tissue. When it is determined by the centurion in charge that the prisoner is near death, the beating is finally stopped.

The half-fainting Jesus is then untied and allowed to slump to the stone pavement, wet with His own blood. The Roman soldiers see a great joke in this young carpenter claiming to be king. They throw a robe across His shoulders and place a stick in His hand for a scepter. They still need a crown to make their travesty complete. Flexible branches covered with long thorns (commonly used in bundles for firewood) are plaited into the shape of a crown and this is pressed into His scalp. Again there is copious bleeding, the scalp being one of the most vascular areas of the body. After mocking him and striking him across the face, the soldiers take the stick from his hand and strike him across the head, driving the thorns deeper into His scalp. Finally, they tire of their sadistic sport and the robe is torn from his back. Already having adhered to the clots of blood and serum in the wounds, its removal causes excruciating pain just as in the careless removal of a surgical bandage, and almost as though he were again being whipped the wounds once more begin to bleed. In deference to Jewish custom, the Romans return his garments.

The heavy patibulum of the cross is tied across his shoulders, and the procession of the condemned Christ, two thieves, and the execution detail of Roman soldiers headed by a centurion begins its slow journey along the Via Dolorosa. In spite of his efforts to walk erect, the weight of the heavy wooden beam, together with the shock produced by copious blood loss, is too much. He stumbles and falls. The rough wood of the beam gouges into the lacerated skin and muscles of the shoulders. He tries to rise, but human muscles have been pushed beyond their endurance. The centurion, anxious to get on with the crucifixion, selects a stalwart North African onlooker, Simon of Cyrene, to carry the cross. Jesus follows, still bleeding and sweating the cold, clammy sweat of shock, until the 650 yard journey from the fortress Antonia to Golgotha is finally completed. Jesus is offered wine mixed with myrrh, a mild analgesic mixture. He refuses to drink. Simon is ordered to place the patibulum on the ground and Jesus is quickly thrown backward with his shoulders against the wood. The legionnaire feels for the depression at the front of the wrist. He drives a heavy, square, wrought-iron nail through the wrist and deep into the wood. Quickly, he moves to the other side and repeats the action being careful not to pull the arms too tightly, but to allow some flexion and movement. The patibulum is then lifted in place at the top of the stipes and the titulus reading "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" is nailed in place. The left foot is now pressed backward against the right foot, and with both feet extended, toes down, a nail is driven through the arch of each, leaving the knees moderately flexed.
The Victim is now crucified. As he slowly sags down with more weight on the nails in the wrists excruciating pain shoots along the fingers and up the arms to explode in the brain -- the nails in the wrists are putting pressure on the median nerves. As he pushes Himself upward to avoid this stretching torment, He places his full weight on the nail through his feet. Again there is the searing agony of the nail tearing through the nerves between the metatarsal bones of the feet. At this point, as the arms fatigue, great waves of cramps sweep over the muscles, knotting them in deep, relentless, throbbing pain. With these cramps comes the inability to push himself upward. Hanging by his arms, the pectoral muscles are paralyzed and the intercostal muscles are unable to act. Air can be drawn into the lungs, but cannot be exhaled. Jesus fights to raise himself in order to get even one short breath. Finally, carbon dioxide builds up in the lungs and in the blood stream and the cramps partially subside. Spasmodically, he is able to push himself upward to exhale and bring in the life-giving oxygen. It was undoubtedly during these periods that he uttered the seven short sentences recorded: The first, looking down at the Roman soldiers throwing dice for His seamless garment, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." The second, to the penitent thief, "Today you'll be with me in Paradise." The third, looking down at the terrified, grief-stricken adolescent John -- the beloved Apostle -- he said, "Behold your mother." Then, looking to His mother Mary, "Woman behold your son." The fourth cry is from the beginning of the 22nd Psalm, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Hours of limitless pain, cycles of twisting, joint-rending cramps, intermittent partial asphyxiation, searing pain where tissue is torn from his lacerated back as he moves up and down against the rough timber. Then another agony begins...A terrible crushing pain deep in the chest as the pericardium slowly fills with serum and begins to compress the heart. One remembers again the 22nd Psalm, the 14th verse: "I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels."
It is now almost over. The loss of tissue fluids has reached a critical level; the compressed heart is struggling to pump heavy, thick, sluggish blood into the tissue; the tortured lungs are making a frantic effort to gasp in small gulps of air. The markedly dehydrated tissues send their flood of stimuli to the brain. Jesus gasps His fifth cry, "I'm thirsty"
One remembers another verse from the prophetic 22nd Psalm: "My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou has brought me into the dust of death." A sponge soaked in posca, the cheap, sour wine which is the staple drink of the Roman legionaries, is lifted to his lips. He apparently doesn't take any of the liquid. The body of Jesus is now in extremes, and he can feel the chill of death creeping through his tissues. This realization brings out his sixth words, possibly little more than a tortured whisper, "It's finished." His mission of atonement has completed. Finally he can allow his body to die. With one last surge of strength, he once again presses his torn feet against the nail, straightens his legs, takes a deeper breath, and utters his seventh and last cry, "Father! Into your hands I commit my spirit."

The rest you know. In order that the Sabbath not be profaned, the Jews asked that the condemned men be dispatched and removed from the crosses. The common method of ending a crucifixion was by crurifracture, the breaking of the bones of the legs. This prevented the victim from pushing himself upward; thus the tension could not be relieved from the muscles of the chest and rapid suffocation occurred. The legs of the two thieves were broken, but when the soldiers came to Jesus they saw that this was unnecessary. Apparently to make doubly sure of death, the legionnaire drove his lance through the fifth interspace between the ribs, upward through the pericardium and into the heart. The 34th verse of the 19th chapter of the Gospel according to St. John reports: "And immediately there came out blood and water." That is, there was an escape of water fluid from the sac surrounding the heart, giving postmortem evidence that Jesus died not the usual crucifixion death by suffocation, but of heart failure (a broken heart) due to shock and constriction of the heart by fluid in the pericardium.

 

[kai]

I've yet to see any depicting Moses, though. And I've yet to see people in the Middle East have a passionate response to any of the hundreds of cartoons that depict ordinary Arabs in a negative light.

maybe thats because moses is revered by all three abrahamic religions together, and i admit that arabs in general are not submitted to the relentless anti semitic characters like the jews are

 

[Buttercup]

I would like to keep the thread on topic of your thoughts about any country being able to prosecute for supposed blasphemy. Should it be illegal?

 

[kai]

basphemy i think its outdated medievel offence i am not sure its ever enforced in britain but i noticed it can carry life inprisonmnet in Pakistan and the death penalty for cases of "use of derogatory remarks in respect of the Holy Prophet".

so in my opinion it has no place in the laws of any country in this day and age

 

[PetShopBoy88]

I would like to keep the thread on topic of your thoughts about any country being able to prosecute for supposed blasphemy. Should it be illegal?

Prosecution for any speech or idea should be illegal. Only actions that physically harm somebody else should be prosecuted.

 

[Djamila]

Sorry, Buttercup.

I think blasphemy must be exceptionally extreme to be prosecuted today, especially in Europe. Simply offending the religious sensibilities of a group cannot be legally prosecuted as blasphemy in Europe in this day and age, it's just not right.

Should it be allowed, that I'm torn on. Free speech is very important. But any such actions, I think, must be prosecuted as hate crimes. If its not a hate crime, then so be it.

 

[Buttercup]

Everyone's sentiments are how I feel as well. Such a practice of prosecuting blasphemy seems antiquated and hypocritical when your country allows prostitution.

But, on the other hand...at our current time in history it seems that the practice of blashphemy against any religion's holy characters should be highly frowned upon to help keep the peace.

 

[nutshell]

There are no laws against blasphemy in the U.S. as far as I know. Don't most countries recognize the difference between church and state these days?

 

[zasetsu57]

In my opinion there should be a clear demarcation between blasphemous actions (rooted in religion) and court actions...I believe that the courts should have no power whatsoever in religious matters unless overt actions include physical harm to persons or criminal damage to property. the "blasphemy" is a religious issue not a legal one. By some peoples view...simply not being a Christian makes one a blasphemous individual, and throughout history we have seen the results of such a thought/view. It is both easy and convenient to condemn ones opponents (see Dr. Elaine Pagels views on the demonization of ones enemies in "The Origins of Satan") as being blasphemous...it makes the atrocities easier to justify.

 

[YmirGF]

Buttercup, it is ludicrous to enact ancient blasphemy laws, in this day and age.
This clearly flies in the face of the division of church and state.

Madonna is a masterful manipulator of the media. She really is. Though I am not a fan of hers (I do like some of her stuff) I see no harm EVEN if she was pretending to be Jesus, in drag, tarted up in flashy undergarments. So what! is my main reaction.

My feeling is that if people are offended by this sort of thing, then they are already taking their religion and its trivial symbols far too seriously. Madonna is an entertainer. People go to see her to be entertained NOT to hear some great message she has.

 

[painted wolf]

if this was made illegal, then what would happin with all the christian "passion plays" that reinact the crusifixion?
if Madonna can't stand up on a cross should Mel Gibson be able to have an actor do the same?

Blasphemy laws unworkable in a free country.

wa:do

 

[nutshell]

if this was made illegal, then what would happin with all the christian "passion plays" that reinact the crusifixion?
if Madonna can't stand up on a cross should Mel Gibson be able to have an actor do the same?

Blasphemy laws unworkable in a free country.

wa:do

There's a difference in intent, which is a huge factor in determining the law.

 

[Buttercup]

A brief overview of European blasphemy laws:
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,1894686,00.html

The Netherlands has a law proscribing what is called "scornful blasphemy," and providing for up three months in jail and a fine of 70 euros ($85) The last major case brought under the law was in 1968 against a writer who wrote a poem about having sex with God. The case was eventually thrown out of court.

Austrian law prohibits the ridiculing of a religion, on pain of up to six months in jail. But no attempt was made to use it last year when a book of cartoons was published depicting the Christian prophet Jesus as a marijuana-smoking hippie.

Poland, an overwhelmingly Catholic country, has a legal provision against publicly offending a person's religious feelings, with up to two years in prison. Artist Dorota Nieznalska, is currently being sued under the law for a sculpture in which male genitals were shown attached to a Christian crucifix.

Denmark, where the Mohammed cartoons were first published, has a law providing for fines and up to four months in jail for anyone who "publicly offends or insults a religion that is recognized in the country." However a court case brought against the paper that printed the Danish cartoons by 11 Muslim groups last October was thrown out, with the judges considering that the issue of freedom of expression was more important than the ban on blasphemy.

Norway has a public order law dating from the 1930s which in principle outlaws blasphemy on pain of up to six months in jail. But it is never used.

Britain there is an old, little-used law against blasphemy, and a new law that outlaws incitation to religious hatred. However the former explicitly applies only to the Anglican Church, as Muslim leaders discovered when they tried to use it against the writer Salman Rushdie for his novel "The Satanic Verses", published in 2000. The terms of reference of the new law on religious hatred have been kept deliberately narrow, to take in only acts or words explicitly aimed at sparking violence.

Germany has an anti-blasphemy law dating from 1871, but it has been little used in recent decades. It was however successfully used in 1994 to ban a musical comedy that ridiculed the Catholic doctrine of the immaculate conception by portraying crucified pigs.

Italy has a law against "outrage to a religion," which has recently been used against the journalist Oriana Fallaci over her outspoken statements and writings on Islam. That case, which adds a charge of "incitation to inter-religious hatred," is still pending.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

if this was made illegal, then what would happin with all the christian "passion plays" that reinact the crusifixion?
if Madonna can't stand up on a cross should Mel Gibson be able to have an actor do the same?

Blasphemy laws unworkable in a free country.

wa:do

That's an excellent question.

I agree that blashpemy laws are unworkable in a free country, but the regulation of free speech is not. Cities are quite free to democratically regulate how freedom of speech is zoned and regulated for the benefit of the city. If speech causes great offense and disurbs the peace, then it is causing measurable harm. My city, Fort Worth, TX, regulates speech quite a bit with noise ordinances and zoning for noise.

It is curious to me how free speech is regulated, and it is of course done so subjectively. The clause that appears over and over in the city ordinances are "X is prohibited if it is offensive to a reasonable person." That's pretty subjective, and it means that the judge has to agree that the actions have to be offensive to most ordinary people - like yelling obsenities and blasphemies (like cursing Allah outside of a mosque with a megaphone during evening prayers) in public places. My wife is a teacher and when a kid says and explicative, the school procedure is to call the police and ticket the kid. I don't know of any tickets that have been fought and forgiven. My wife and the kids give witness statements and the parents are fined or the kid does community service.