Should Christian’s Celebrate Pagan Festivals

[Augustus]

For the UK it was Prince Albert (from Germany). Before that :

"It’s difficult to pinpoint exactly when and where these pagan traditions morphed into the tradition as we know it: Several countries claim to be the birthplace of the Christmas tree, and there are competing mythologies that seek to explain what it all means."
- Why do we have Christmas trees? The surprising history behind this festive tradition.

From our annual “Is Christmas pagan?” thread, may be of some interest (or not):


This is an interesting article from 130 years ago, primarily because it documents contemporary trends.

German Christmas and the Christmas tree

Some key points:

The earliest documented tree was in Strasbourg in 1605, and the tradition was very localised. They seem to have been purely decorative.

It wasn’t really till the 18th c that trees became common in some other areas.

Even in the late 19thC when the article was written, Christmas trees were still only common in certain parts of Germany, primarily the Protestant regions. Catholic regions were said to prefer nativity scenes.

There were myths about Luther inventing the Christmas tree, but this offers some evidence that it may have been a Protestant tradition.

This is hard to square with the idea that they represent some common pagan tradition that had been preserved through the ages.

Most interestingly, given the common claim that Christmas trees are a relic of a purported pagan reverence for evergreens, numerous places had traditions involving deciduous trees or branches, particularly trying to make them flower in winter.

This was purportedly connected with a “Christmas miracle” of trees blooming in winter that featured in numerous folk tales dating back to the 14th c.

Ultimately there are many stories about the origins of Christmas trees, but they are mostly a tradition that only began a couple of hundred years ago and have no real connection with the ancient past.

 

[Augustus]

Bonfire night is mainly about the simple enjoyment of seeing and hearing fireworks and scaring pets and wildlife. No-one gives a monkey's about any kings or even thinks about such things as restoring Catholic monarchs.

Don’t be so naive.

Fires are an ancient pagan ritual designed to ward off evil spirits. Putting a “Guy” on there is extra pagan as it is an obvious appropriation of the Druidic tradition of sacrificing humans by burning them inside a large whicker man.

The explosion of fireworks also recreates the pagan practice of chasing off spirits with loud noises.

So it is clearly a traditional pagan winter fire festival that Christians stole and turned into a wholesome family event of sectarian triumphalism where people young and old can unite in memory of the Providential triumph of Protestantism over a vile popish plot.

 

[Altfish]

From our annual “Is Christmas pagan?” thread, may be of some interest (or not):


This is an interesting article from 130 years ago, primarily because it documents contemporary trends.

German Christmas and the Christmas tree

Some key points:

The earliest documented tree was in Strasbourg in 1605, and the tradition was very localised. They seem to have been purely decorative.

It wasn’t really till the 18th c that trees became common in some other areas.

Even in the late 19thC when the article was written, Christmas trees were still only common in certain parts of Germany, primarily the Protestant regions. Catholic regions were said to prefer nativity scenes.

There were myths about Luther inventing the Christmas tree, but this offers some evidence that it may have been a Protestant tradition.

This is hard to square with the idea that they represent some common pagan tradition that had been preserved through the ages.

Most interestingly, given the common claim that Christmas trees are a relic of a purported pagan reverence for evergreens, numerous places had traditions involving deciduous trees or branches, particularly trying to make them flower in winter.

This was purportedly connected with a “Christmas miracle” of trees blooming in winter that featured in numerous folk tales dating back to the 14th c.

Ultimately there are many stories about the origins of Christmas trees, but they are mostly a tradition that only began a couple of hundred years ago and have no real connection with the ancient past.

The argument that Xmas was Pagan, comes from the fact that there was a Festival, often called, Saturnalia, that was to celebrate the shortest day and the harvest was in. This festival was transformed when Christianity arrived.

 

[Soapy]

Really? So if you were to ask 10 random people the name of the King how many would know it?

Bonfire night is mainly about the simple enjoyment of seeing and hearing fireworks and scaring pets and wildlife. No-one gives a monkey's about any kings or even thinks about such things as restoring Catholic monarchs.

Yes!! The fireworks is contemporary and is an hugely exaggerated mimicry of the sparks of what would have come from the fire while the effigy was burnt. I remember the events from my youth which took place in many places in the town I lived in and all over the uk.

The point of the thread is to highlight how paganry has taken over worship of God and fallen towards festivals and celebration of pagan rituals that do not glorify God IN PLACES THAT PROFESS CHRISTIANITY AS THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEF.

 

[McBell]

Yes!! The fireworks is contemporary and is an hugely exaggerated mimicry of the sparks of what would have come from the fire while the effigy was burnt. I remember the events from my youth which took place in many places in the town I lived in and all over the uk.

The point of the thread is to highlight how paganry has taken over worship of God and fallen towards festivals and celebration of pagan rituals that do not glorify God IN PLACES THAT PROFESS CHRISTIANITY AS THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEF.

Are you claiming that any use of a bon fire is pagan?

 

[Secret Chief]

The argument that Xmas was Pagan, comes from the fact that there was a Festival, often called, Saturnalia, that was to celebrate the shortest day and the harvest was in. This festival was transformed when Christianity arrived.

The @ChristineM household still get their rocks off to it.

 

[Altfish]

The @ChristineM household still get their rocks off to it.

I'm waiting for my invite

 

[Secret Chief]

whicker

Alan?

 

[Secret Chief]

I'm waiting for my invite

She never remembers. She's too ******.

 

[Augustus]

The argument that Xmas was Pagan, comes from the fact that there was a Festival, often called, Saturnalia, that was to celebrate the shortest day and the harvest was in. This festival was transformed when Christianity arrived.

That argument has a lot of presence in the internet, but much less so in scholarly studies. Sol Invictus was the more common “history of religions” argument for pagan influence on the dating (although that argument has several problems).

Saturnalia and Christmas were celebrated side by side on different days in the same places for over a century though. As such it is pretty hard to say Christmas replaced Saturnalia given they coexisted and were celebrated by the same people in the same societies.

One common mistake is to assume that the purpose of dating the birth of Jesus was to have a big party. However, there are good reasons to believe the dating of Jesus’ birth to 25 Dec significantly predates any celebration.

As such the reason Christmas became a popular celebration could be the same reason Saturnalia was a popular celebration, it happened at a convenient time of year.

But that would not mean it’s dating was done as a marketing ploy, it’s just 9 months after the the annunciation (which has slightly odd, but Christian reasons behind its dating).

 

[Soapy]

Are you claiming that any use of a bon fire is pagan?

Not a bonfire, per se… I know what you are trying to lead towards and it won’t work!!!

The term, bonfire, was is used in terms of the use of heaped up fire for burning as a ritual, in this case, to the burning of the effigy of one of the men in the attempt, one, Guido Fawkes (Guy Fawkes).

A bonfire itself is not the issue - rather, the burning of an effigy on it.

(Man, you gotta get up way earlier than you do now iv you want to catch me out!!!)

 

[Altfish]

That argument has a lot of presence in the internet, but much less so in scholarly studies. Sol Invictus was the more common “history of religions” argument for pagan influence on the dating (although that argument has several problems).

Saturnalia and Christmas were celebrated side by side on different days in the same places for over a century though. As such it is pretty hard to say Christmas replaced Saturnalia given they coexisted and were celebrated by the same people in the same societies.

One common mistake is to assume that the purpose of dating the birth of Jesus was to have a big party. However, there are good reasons to believe the dating of Jesus’ birth to 25 Dec significantly predates any celebration.

As such the reason Christmas became a popular celebration could be the same reason Saturnalia was a popular celebration, it happened at a convenient time of year.

But that would not mean it’s dating was done as a marketing ploy, it’s just 9 months after the the annunciation (which has slightly odd, but Christian reasons behind its dating).

Link to this please.

 

[Augustus]

Link to this please.

Is Christmas Pagan?

Well I just thought that reindeer seem so in tune with the Lapland tradition that is all. It's part of my Swedish tradition, thus I was just joking around. BTW, part of what I like about Christmas is that it brings in traditions from various parts of the world since some different symbols are...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[McBell]

Not a bonfire, per se… I know what you are trying to lead towards and it won’t work!!!

The term, bonfire, was is used in terms of the use of heaped up fire for burning as a ritual, in this case, to the burning of the effigy of one of the men in the attempt, one, Guido Fawkes (Guy Fawkes).

A bonfire itself is not the issue - rather, the burning of an effigy on it.

(Man, you gotta get up way earlier than you do now iv you want to catch me out!!!)

People have been around for a long long time before Christianity.
And they have had rituals and traditions etc. for all that time.

There is not much in the way of celebration that those before Christianity have not already done and incorporated into their traditions, rituals, etc.

That does not mean that a Christian ritual or tradition that is similar to a non-Christian ritual or celebration is "Pagan/pagan".

Celebrating birthdays is a prime example.
Since birthdays have been celebrated long before Christianity, would it be correct to claim that Christmas being a celebration of the birth of Jesus is Pagan?

 

[Soapy]

People have been around for a long long time before Christianity.
And they have had rituals and traditions etc. for all that time.

There is not much in the way of celebration that those before Christianity have not already done and incorporated into their traditions, rituals, etc.

That does not mean that a Christian ritual or tradition that is similar to a non-Christian ritual or celebration is "Pagan/pagan".

Celebrating birthdays is a prime example.
Since birthdays have been celebrated long before Christianity, would it be correct to claim that Christmas being a celebration of the birth of Jesus is Pagan?

The BIRTH of THE MESSIAH was what WAS celebrated ON THE DAY….

There was no call for CONTINUED CELEBRATION OF THE DAY… which is emphasised by the fact that NO ACTUAL DAY is given in scriptures. God never stated for mankind to worship Jesus on his birth…day! The only commemoration was given by Jesus which was to be his DEATH which is the commemoration of him conquering sin and gaining redemption of the mankind,

It is to be noted that Jew or Christian was ever stated as holding a birthday celebration. And examples of birthday celebrations were all BAD!!!

 

[McBell]

The BIRTH of THE MESSIAH was what WAS celebrated ON THE DAY….

There was no call for CONTINUED CELEBRATION OF THE DAY… which is emphasised by the fact that NO ACTUAL DAY is given in scriptures. God never stated for mankind to worship Jesus on his birth…day! The only commemoration was given by Jesus which was to be his DEATH which is the sin of him conquering sin and gaining redemption of the mankind,

It is to be noted that Jew or Christian was ever stated as holding a birthday celebration. And examples of birthday celebrations were all BAD!!!

Did God ever state NOT to celebrate the birth of Jesus?

 

[Soapy]

Did God ever state NOT to celebrate the birth of Jesus?

Ha ha ha…. This old chestnut…….!!!!

God said to celebrate THE BIRTH…(one day) not the BIRTHDAY (continual annual event)!!!

Did God not say to do what is Pagan????

Yes, He did… and birthday celebration is Pagan … so….

YES, GOD DID SAY NOT TO CELEBRATE JESUS’ BIRTHDAY … He only said to glory in the BIRTH of the messiah. The birth is not the glory…. the DEATH is the Glory!!!!!! And THAT is what is to bd commemorated:

• ‘Do this in remembrance of me!’

There was great joy WHEN the hero arrived at the beleaguered camp of the kings people….
But what was celebrated annually was the hero’s conquering act… No one now even remembers the day the hero arrived - but they make sure remember the day he succeeded in defeated the enemy in an annual celebration.

When the hero arrived there was POTENTIAL…

When the Hero succeeds THAT is CERTAINTY…

In ‘The Book of Esther’, it is the “Day of Purim” that is commemorated.

 

[McBell]

Ha ha ha…. This old chestnut…….!!!!

God said to celebrate THE BIRTH…(one day) not the BIRTHDAY (continual annual event)!!!

Did God not say to do what is Pagan????

Yes, He did… and birthday celebration is Pagan … so….

YES, GOD DID SAY NOT TO CELEBRATE JESUS’ BIRTHDAY … He only said to glory in the BIRTH of the messiah. The birth is not the glory…. the DEATH is the Glory!!!!!! And THAT is what is to bd commemorated:

• ‘Do this in remembrance of me!’

There was great joy WHEN the hero arrived at the beleaguered camp of the kings people….
But what was celebrated annually was the hero’s conquering act… No one now even remembers the day the hero arrived - but they make sure remember the day he succeeded in defeated the enemy in an annual celebration.

When the hero arrived there was POTENTIAL…

When the Hero succeeds THAT is CERTAINTY…

In ‘The Book of Esther’, it is the “Day of Purim” that is commemorated.

So no, God never did state to NOT celebrate the birth of Jesus.
You are merely playing with semantics.

 

[The Hammer]

The argument that Xmas was Pagan, comes from the fact that there was a Festival, often called, Saturnalia, that was to celebrate the shortest day and the harvest was in. This festival was transformed when Christianity arrived.

Then people in this thread claiming otherwise just want Christianity to remain "special".

 

[ADigitalArtist]

Then people in this thread claiming otherwise just want Christianity to remain "special".

My complaint with 'Christians stole Christmas from the pagans' has less to do with keeping Christianity special, especially since I'm not a Christian. And every culture has cultural drift and Christians are no different.
It comes more from criticism of people like Joseph Campbell and monomything. Which tends to flatten actual cultural drift and abhors that similar ideas can rise independently due to common experiences. Especially when it just exists for some conspiratorial jab (ala Zeitgeist) or some gotcha to Christians. When people talk about Christmas trees, Saturnalia, or equinox rituals in general, it's often not coming from a place of authentic scholarship but just really superficial pop-takes.

To me it's the equivalent of saying the global flood was real because there's flood mythologies in every civilization. It's reductive, it doesn't look at how civilizations arise in flood plains, so of course they'll have some common myths about flooding. Same is true of how things became rituals revolving around specific seasons. Spring is going to be about new beginnings, fall is going to be about harvest, winter is going to be about thankfulness, meditation, using up final perishable stores, longing for light in the darkness, etc etc etc. The only places that you don't really see a lot of similar seasonal festivals are places on the planet that don't have highly visible seasons.