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Should Church/State be seperated?
- Thread starter Rex
- Start date
Colin_Admin
Member
Yes because what religion would be conform to if we had to choose just one.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
The founding 'fathers' of the USA knew that to make the church a part of the government would be a cause for disunity. Anyone who claimes other wise is talking bunk...
some quotes I snitched off ReligiousTolerance.org
Thomas Jefferson: "...our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry."
"Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." (This is the source of the term "wall of separation between church and state.")
James Madison: "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
I think they said it best
wa:-do
some quotes I snitched off ReligiousTolerance.org
Thomas Jefferson: "...our civil rights have no dependence on our religious opinions, any more than our opinions in physics or geometry."
"Believing that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their Legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church and State." (This is the source of the term "wall of separation between church and state.")
James Madison: "Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
I think they said it best
wa:-do
They are separated.
In Sweden.
In 1860 people were permitted to leave the Church of Sweden - but only if they enrolled in a religious community which had government approval. In 1951, free leaving was allowed. From 1/1 2000 the separation is practically total.
I find a separation necessary and the only logical way to handle things. The question refers to Church/State, so other religions are excluded from my personal comments and views. For many Moslems, such a question is a contradiction in itself, and quite a few Indians would like to have India totally Hinduist...
Anders
In Sweden.
In 1860 people were permitted to leave the Church of Sweden - but only if they enrolled in a religious community which had government approval. In 1951, free leaving was allowed. From 1/1 2000 the separation is practically total.
I find a separation necessary and the only logical way to handle things. The question refers to Church/State, so other religions are excluded from my personal comments and views. For many Moslems, such a question is a contradiction in itself, and quite a few Indians would like to have India totally Hinduist...
Anders
THEDARKONE4
Member
Well, in the U.S. church and state should be united as it was intended by the founding fathers, and was abided by for almost 200 years until 1962-1963, when the Supreme Court took what Thomas Jefferson said completely out of context and also changed the definition of church.
Runt
Well-Known Member
LOL! The religious demographics of the nation are not even NEARLY the same as they were at the founding of the nation... it would be impossible to unite church and state and not start a civil war. Christians may be the majority in this country, but there are LOTS of people who are not Christian who would NEVER agree to such a union.
As for Thomas Jefferson... he was Unitarian... or at least had Unitarian beliefs: http://www.2think.org/tj.shtml
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
THEDARKONE4
not true....
Jefferson was not christian, he was a diest... sort of a precurser to U.U ism. (but not an actual Unitarian sorry runt... )
Thomas Jefferson eaven made it his priority to seperate church and state at the state level... prior to this it was considered a states rights issue... but his home state had adopted a state sponsored church, (I dont remember wich one). He made shure that the government discontinued this by passing ammendments to the state consitution to seperate church and state.
He really had a thing against govenment and religion getting too cozy...
a good example is this quote:
"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
or how about :
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
-Thomas Jefferson
For more such quotes go to:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm
He was certanly one of the most complex and misunderstood of the presidents. I'm still not shure if I like him or not.
wa:-do
not true....
Jefferson was not christian, he was a diest... sort of a precurser to U.U ism. (but not an actual Unitarian sorry runt...
)Thomas Jefferson eaven made it his priority to seperate church and state at the state level... prior to this it was considered a states rights issue... but his home state had adopted a state sponsored church, (I dont remember wich one). He made shure that the government discontinued this by passing ammendments to the state consitution to seperate church and state.
He really had a thing against govenment and religion getting too cozy...
a good example is this quote:
"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom
or how about :
"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
-Thomas Jefferson
For more such quotes go to:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/jefferson.htm
He was certanly one of the most complex and misunderstood of the presidents. I'm still not shure if I like him or not.
wa:-do
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
True, Jefferson never joined a Unitarian church, but Runt is correct in stating he held Unitarian beliefs. He did attend Unitarian services after his immigration to Pennsylvania and spoke highly of those services. He corresponded on religious matters with numerous Unitarians, among them Jared Sparks (Unitarian minister, historian and president of Harvard), Thomas Cooper, Benjamin Waterhouse and John Adams. He was perhaps most open concerning his own beliefs in his long exchange of letters with John Adams during their late years, 1812-26.
Jefferson's earliest writings on religion exhibit a natural theology, a heavy reliance on reason, and the belief that morality comes not from special revelation but from careful attention to the inward moral sense. In a letter to his nephew Peter Carr in 1787, Jefferson advised, "Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god."
He considered Jesus the teacher of a sublime and flawless ethic. Writing in 1803 to the Universalist physician Benjamin Rush, Jefferson wrote, "To the corruptions of Christianity, I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other."
Jefferson found the Unitarian understanding of Jesus compatible with his own. In 1822 he predicted that "there is not a young man now living in the US who will not die an Unitarian." Jefferson requested that a Unitarian minister be dispatched to his area of Virginia. "Missionaries from Cambridge [that is: Harvard Divinity School] would soon be greeted with more welcome, than from the tritheistical school of Andover." Jefferson's christology is apparent in these and similar letters, and also in one of his most famous writings, the "Jefferson Bible."
Source: http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/thomasjefferson.html
Jefferson's earliest writings on religion exhibit a natural theology, a heavy reliance on reason, and the belief that morality comes not from special revelation but from careful attention to the inward moral sense. In a letter to his nephew Peter Carr in 1787, Jefferson advised, "Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god."
He considered Jesus the teacher of a sublime and flawless ethic. Writing in 1803 to the Universalist physician Benjamin Rush, Jefferson wrote, "To the corruptions of Christianity, I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense in which he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence, and believing he never claimed any other."
Jefferson found the Unitarian understanding of Jesus compatible with his own. In 1822 he predicted that "there is not a young man now living in the US who will not die an Unitarian." Jefferson requested that a Unitarian minister be dispatched to his area of Virginia. "Missionaries from Cambridge [that is: Harvard Divinity School] would soon be greeted with more welcome, than from the tritheistical school of Andover." Jefferson's christology is apparent in these and similar letters, and also in one of his most famous writings, the "Jefferson Bible."
Source: http://www.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/thomasjefferson.html
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
perhaps I am wrong... its happined before, and will probably happin again.
I had always heard him refered to as a Diest, a UU precurser faith. Perhaps he converted as UU was founded.
wa:-do
I had always heard him refered to as a Diest, a UU precurser faith. Perhaps he converted as UU was founded.
wa:-do
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
painted wolf said:perhaps I am wrong... its happined before, and will probably happin again.
I had always heard him refered to as a Diest, a UU precurser faith. Perhaps he converted as UU was founded.
wa:-do
Well UUism was founded until 1961 when Unitarians and Universalists decided that they had more in common than differences and would have a stronger voice if they joined. So Thomas Jefferson had lived way before UUs existed. But UUs do claim Jefferson as a leading voice of reason in religion even though he was never officially a member of the church, so you are correct on that point.
Here's a couple links about Thomas Jefferson and the Unitarian church, if you're interested:
http://www.famousuus.com/bios/thomas_jefferson.htm
http://www.2think.org/tj.shtml
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Maize-
thanks... it seems its as complicated as the man himself...
Wa:-do
thanks... it seems its as complicated as the man himself...
Wa:-do