Should ex-Muslims be killed for renouncing their religion?

[Muffled]

It also says there is no compulsion in the religion. So who really wrote the Quran? Several people must have, who all had their own agenda, otherwise there wouldn't be so many inconsistencies.

I know people seem to think that punishment is compulsion but I believe the truth is that people often go on believing in sin even when they are punished for it. I saw that a lot in my jail ministry which explains why there is so much rescivitism.

 

[gsa]

I think it is more likely that one does not have to be a Supreme Court Justice to interpret the constitution.

I believe any Christian can interpret the Qu'ran better than a Muslim because of the guidance of the Holy Spirit which means the guidance of God.

No, but it really helps to have legal training.

How does the Holy Spirit help Christians with reading the scriptures of non-Christians? And, if so, shouldn't it help you understand useful things, like mathematics and physics? Engineering manuals? That kind of thing?

 

[Muffled]

Its a religion based on justice. This apostate deserves the death penalty.
His death will be clear warning to apostates that wants to follow his ''heroic'' path.

I believe it is wrong because the people setting themselves up as judges can be just as wrong as anyone else and sometimes the heretic is right. Take for instance the Sanhedrin who judged God in Jesus to be an apostate when their own house was anything but clean.

 

[Muffled]

No, but it really helps to have legal training.

How does the Holy Spirit help Christians with reading the scriptures of non-Christians? And, if so, shouldn't it help you understand useful things, like mathematics and physics? Engineering manuals? That kind of thing?

I believe legal training like training in a seminary can lead a person to believe what is taught is true without investigating the logic of it. When I had my class in law I found it to be a very logical disipline and logic is my strength. I could have been a lawyer instead of a computer programmer but at the time I was very frightened of public speaking and the law just did not excite me.

Duh! I believe God knows everything.

I believe it is difficult to say for sure what God will help with. I know that at times He helped when my car broke down but not usually with a better knowledge of auto mechanics.

 

[Muffled]

Theweirdtophat said:
"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed,- all who are on earth!"
If it had been his will, meaning, Allah can force others, but chooses not to, according to the Quran anyway"

I believe what God removes the memory of evil. I believe He does that in Heaven and in The Kingdom of God. However He is only doing that for those who want it. The ones who don't want it are being sent to Hell. There is no way to compel someone to want it.

 

[Caligula]

We have to separate between law and morality. I find some of the laws I have to obey to be immoral or unnecessary but I think I should get punished if I break them, according to the law.

My answer: laws that regulate the way one should think about anything at all are immoral. Ex-Muslims that renounce their religion should be put to death if that's what the law stipulates.

If I have something against a particular law I will first have to denounce it. Braking it is not a correct step in that direction.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

We have to separate between law and morality. I find some of the laws I have to obey to be immoral or unnecessary but I think I should get punished if I break them, according to the law.

My answer: laws that regulate the way one should think about anything at all are immoral. Ex-Muslims that renounce their religion should be put to death if that's what the law stipulates.

If I have something against a particular law I will first have to denounce it. Braking it is not a correct step in that direction.

It's not breaking the law if the law goes against basic human rights. We have freedom of choice, do we not? It's revolutionary, not anarchy and it's absurd that one must follow a law no matter how unfair it is to the people. Ex Muslims should NOT be punished for being apostate and neither should any other apostate.

 

[Cephus]

It's not breaking the law if the law goes against basic human rights. We have freedom of choice, do we not? It's revolutionary, not anarchy and it's absurd that one must follow a law no matter how unfair it is to the people. Ex Muslims should NOT be punished for being apostate and neither should any other apostate.

That's a whole lot of wrong assumptions, sorry. There's no such thing as basic human rights, rights exist if, and only if, the society in which an individual lives agree they exist. It doesn't matter how many groups declare a set of universal human rights, they don't really exist. No, there are many people in the world that don't have freedom of choice. You might wish they did, they simply don't in practice. The fact remains that in the Middle East, they can, and often do, pass religious laws that permit the abuse and execution of people for lots of reasons that we, in the west, would consider barbaric. Do we think these things should be true? Of course not. Does our desire have anything to do with the reality? Not in the least.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

That's a whole lot of wrong assumptions, sorry. There's no such thing as basic human rights, rights exist if, and only if, the society in which an individual lives agree they exist. It doesn't matter how many groups declare a set of universal human rights, they don't really exist. No, there are many people in the world that don't have freedom of choice. You might wish they did, they simply don't in practice. The fact remains that in the Middle East, they can, and often do, pass religious laws that permit the abuse and execution of people for lots of reasons that we, in the west, would consider barbaric. Do we think these things should be true? Of course not. Does our desire have anything to do with the reality? Not in the least.

We've always had right to choose. You are implying we don't have freedom of choice? There are people that don't. But what's your point? Because some other countries have little to know freedom that means we shouldn't? There are a lot of countries that are different from each other. Why do you think so many came to america? So they could avoid this kind of trouble where someone would be in jail or killed for something doing stupid like renouncing their religion. if there is a law severely limiting it just outright tossing freedom of speech or religion,that law is null and void because it violates the first amendment

 

[Cephus]

We've always had right to choose. You are implying we don't have freedom of choice? There are people that don't. But what's your point? Because some other countries have little to know freedom that means we shouldn't? There are a lot of countries that are different from each other. Why do you think so many came to america? So they could avoid this kind of trouble where someone would be in jail or killed for something doing stupid like renouncing their religion. if there is a law severely limiting it just outright tossing freedom of speech or religion,that law is null and void because it violates the first amendment

We do because the societies we live in say we do. That is not true everywhere. What we're talking about in this thread are societies where you do not have that freedom. They do not recognize it. Therefore, they don't have it. Is there any disagreement here?

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

I voted yes. But this is based on the clear scripture. Apostates of islam must be killed. No question.

However, If you don't believe the scripture, then why on earth would you harm someone for turning their back on ignorant beliefs.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

I voted yes. But this is based on the clear scripture. Apostates of islam must be killed. No question.

However, If you don't believe the scripture, then why on earth would you harm someone for turning their back on ignorant beliefs.

In the scripture it also says there is no compulsion in the religion either. Also when Islam started early, they had conflict with the Arab pagans and it's been said then they should be executed not just for turning against Islam, but joining the enemies they were fighting at the time.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

In the scripture it also says there is no compulsion in the religion either. Also when Islam started early, they had conflict with the Arab pagans and it's been said then they should be executed not just for turning against Islam, but joining the enemies they were fighting at the time.

Yes. No compulsion! So long as one is in submission to Islam, what does not have to accept Islam. If one believes that Jesus is the only way, there is no compulsion so long as one keeps one's mouth shut. If one is hindu, there is no compulsion so long as one keeps one's mouth shut. If one believes in moses, there is no compulsion, so long as one keeps one's mouth shut...and pays the taxes. What a FJ.

And yet no compulsion has nothing to do with apostasy. Those who turn their back on Islam are sentenced to death..NO QUESTION.

 

[Nietzsche]

Its a religion based on justice. This apostate deserves the death penalty.
His death will be clear warning to apostates that wants to follow his ''heroic'' path.

I am suddenly very upset that my ancestors were only able to sack & burn a handful of your cities.

 

[Theweirdtophat]

Yes. No compulsion! So long as one is in submission to Islam, what does not have to accept Islam. If one believes that Jesus is the only way, there is no compulsion so long as one keeps one's mouth shut. If one is hindu, there is no compulsion so long as one keeps one's mouth shut. If one believes in moses, there is no compulsion, so long as one keeps one's mouth shut...and pays the taxes. What a FJ.

And yet no compulsion has nothing to do with apostasy. Those who turn their back on Islam are sentenced to death..NO QUESTION.

I don't think you read what I said. They were fighting the Arab pagans and those who Muhammad spoke of were not just those that left Islam but joined the enemies they were fighting, but people misinterpreted that. Of course there's a lot of Muslim countries that don't involve punishment like that for apostates. A lot of things are said in the scripture but they don't always follow them literally. If that was the case, perhaps a lot of Jews would still be doing animal sacrifices since it says so in their book.

There's messed up stuff in a lot of those books and also a lot of good things if one takes the time to read them. I see the scriptures as historical. Islam today isn't the same as Islam a thousand years ago and the same could be said for just about every religion.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

I don't think you read what I said. They were fighting the Arab pagans and those who Muhammad spoke of were not just those that left Islam but joined the enemies they were fighting, but people misinterpreted that. Of course there's a lot of Muslim countries that don't involve punishment like that for apostates. A lot of things are said in the scripture but they don't always follow them literally. If that was the case, perhaps a lot of Jews would still be doing animal sacrifices since it says so in their book.

There's messed up stuff in a lot of those books and also a lot of good things if one takes the time to read them. I see the scriptures as historical. Islam today isn't the same as Islam a thousand years ago and the same could be said for just about every religion.

Agreed. There are a lot of so called muslims and christians who don't even know, much less believe or implement, what their faith has reached for 1000's of years. I was answering based on scripture and sharia law, which is by far the consensus opinion of islamic scholars and authorities. I don't deny that there are aberrant believers, those that don't follow what they preach, and those that don't really believe what they say they believe, that will find murder for apostasy to be a damnable position. However, if you look at the text and the consensus... DEATH IS PROSCRIBED FOR APOSTATES.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

Again. It is optional for any muslim to show mercy. But any muslim is 100% to kill or enslave an apostate. they are justified by sharia.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

There's messed up stuff in a lot of those books and also a lot of good things if one takes the time to read them. I see the scriptures as historical. Islam today isn't the same as Islam a thousand years ago and the same could be said for just about every religion.

So how can any religion represent the truth? If religion supposedly represents some truth, then how does religion change over time? Either the truth changes over time, or religion does not represent the truth. Can you offer another explanation?

 

[Theweirdtophat]

So how can any religion represent the truth? If religion supposedly represents some truth, then how does religion change over time? Either the truth changes over time, or religion does not represent the truth. Can you offer another explanation?

I wanted to say that not all Muslim countries follow Sharia Law and if they do, they don't always offer the same kind of punishment. Everything changes over time and what Christians used to do, they no longer do now and it goes for Muslims or any other religion. They had their virtues and vices back then just like we do now. There's always some truth in these religions as the books do explain what happened in history. Some I think are exaggerated but have some truth in it.

 

[FunctionalAtheist]

I wanted to say that not all Muslim countries follow Sharia Law and if they do, they don't always offer the same kind of punishment. Everything changes over time and what Christians used to do, they no longer do now and it goes for Muslims or any other religion. They had their virtues and vices back then just like we do now. There's always some truth in these religions as the books do explain what happened in history. Some I think are exaggerated but have some truth in it.

I agree with you. Yet acknowledging inconsistency is at once admitting the failing of authority. If all muslims do not believe the same thing this undermines the very concept of authority. Without authority religion is meaningless. And while individuals will falter from the prescribed doctrine in no way excuses the fact that REAL MUSLIMS AGREE...DEATH TO THE INFIDEL..DEATH TO THE APOSTATE.