Should Healthcare cover the cost of Abortions?

[Sententia]

Stop arguing. The pro-lifers assume that women who get abortions are like what do I have to do today? We need milk, and gas... and ohh I slept with a random dude last week need to hit the abortion clinic... hah hope its not packed, like the 23rd this year. I can get some free condoms while there at least...

They really don't seem to have any grasp of reality and have their opinion which they are allowed to have cause they are fortunate enough to be born in america but they think their opinion should be law thus invalidating the whole reason they are allowed to believe the way they do.

Heres some advice. Do what you think is right and let other women do the same. This is not a debate but you wanting to place yourself between a woman and her fertilized egg. That woman is not you but another distinctly different person who knows a lot more about what is good for herself than you think you know for her because after all she is herself and you are you and I trust you know best for yourself but how do you think I would trust you to know what is best for people you never met who are being advised by or at least consulting with their doctors. God tells you so? You are too stupid to understand the scope and situation another person is in or too ignorant to ever ask or too infatuated with your own religion and thoughts to be rational and objective? It's a dumb argument. It's not your body and it's not your choice. Walk away.

 

[Alceste]

Interesting article. Why Is Sean Hannity So Mad You're Having Sex? 5 Ways Conservatives Attack Sexual Freedom | Sex & Relationships | AlterNet

Interesting ideology conservatives have:

1) Abortion is bad.
2) Contraception is bad.
3) Women are only raped because they are whores.

Obviously, these people are extremely dangerous.

 

[E. Nato Difficile]

The analogy I used was more about how choice can be bastardized to make a mockery out of 'rights.'

Well, if a woman doesn't have the choice whether to terminate a pregnancy or carry the baby to term, then she's being deprived of her rights. It's pretty simple.

Heres some advice. Do what you think is right and let other women do the same.

I agree wholeheartedly.

-Nato

 

[Acim]

Well, if a woman doesn't have the choice whether to terminate a pregnancy or carry the baby to term, then she's being deprived of her rights. It's pretty simple.

While other action deprives rights of conceived entity. It's pretty simple.

 

[Alceste]

While other action deprives rights of conceived entity. It's pretty simple.

Not at all simple if you think only sentient beings are entitled to what we know as "rights". If you want to give a full allotment of human rights to a blastocyst with no nervous system or brain, why not give a full allotment of human rights to a carrot?

 

[Father Heathen]

Not at all simple if you think only sentient beings are entitled to what we know as "rights". If you want to give a full allotment of human rights to a blastocyst with no nervous system or brain, why not give a full allotment of human rights to a carrot?

By their logic, washing your hands with anti-bacterial soap is an act of genocide.

 

[E. Nato Difficile]

While other action deprives rights of conceived entity. It's pretty simple.

The "other action," meaning abortion, deprives rights of something that hasn't yet developed sentience, as Alceste has pointed out several times. How exactly does a "conceived entity" gain rights simply by getting its full complement of chromosomes? And how exactly does an adult woman lose rights simply by getting pregnant?

-Nato

 

[idav]

The "other action," meaning abortion, deprives rights of something that hasn't yet developed sentience, as Alceste has pointed out several times. How exactly does a "conceived entity" gain rights simply by getting its full complement of chromosomes? And how exactly does an adult woman lose rights simply by getting pregnant?

-Nato

You have a choice if you want to get pregnant but once your pregnant I suppose you lost that choice because now your pregnant. It is kind of a double standard beyond that because the choice should still remain open whether it is because you forgot the pill, morning after didn't work, got raped, condom broke, pull out method didn't work, rolling the dice didn't work or whatever you can fathom. The basic idea is either you want a baby or you don't and that should remain the choice.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

I guess you could go off yourself if you feel so strongly about it. Might do the world a favor according to your world view.

I know that sounds harsh, but think about it - if you're willing to play fast and loose with the lives of other people because they are just "part of an unchecked species grown out of control" - why wouldn't you rid the world of one more drain on humanity? Put your money where your mouth is. Change starts with one person - you.

Or does your idea of superfluous humanity exclude you and your family?

Faceplam yourself - fetuses aren't humans.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Bottom line - anybody who feels women should be forced to give birth to children they don't want/can't take care of, and who hasn't adopted any of these unwanted children is full of crap.

Put your money where your mouth is, or shut the hell up.

 

[Alceste]

Bottom line - anybody who feels women should be forced to give birth to children they don't want/can't take care of, and who hasn't adopted any of these unwanted children is full of crap.

Put your money where your mouth is, or shut the hell up.

Anybody who feels women should be forced to give birth to children they don't want / can't take care of should be forced by law to directly financially support one single mother and her child until the child reaches the age of majority.

 

[Acim]

Not at all simple if you think only sentient beings are entitled to what we know as "rights". If you want to give a full allotment of human rights to a blastocyst with no nervous system or brain, why not give a full allotment of human rights to a carrot?

As soon as carrots demonstrate consistent and ongoing potential to turn into developing humans, I will be glad to address this question. At that point, I will likely tell you, 'yes, let us consider the rights of these organisms' as if they are (nearly) human.

 

[E. Nato Difficile]

I also love this cavalier attitude that pro-lifers have toward a woman carrying a child to term. Do they think every woman who gets pregnant has people to take care of her as she nears the due date? Does every pregnant woman have a job where she can take maternity leave? Most importantly, do pro-lifers realize that hundreds of women still die in childbirth in the USA each year?

It ain't no walk in the park.

-Nato

 

[Acim]

The "other action," meaning abortion, deprives rights of something that hasn't yet developed sentience, as Alceste has pointed out several times. How exactly does a "conceived entity" gain rights simply by getting its full complement of chromosomes?

Via conception.

And how exactly does an adult woman lose rights simply by getting pregnant?

She doesn't lose all rights. She deserves considerations for all things that are occurring to her. If she desires to end life of conceived entity growing inside of her, she a) can consider it, that ought to be discussed and b) ultimately she can do it, just like ultimately I can put toddlers on spikes if I desire. So can you. I don't lost that 'right' just because you disagree. But if I wanted to exercise that right, chances are (I think), you'd want to discuss it with me as if there could be other options that don't have to be about destroying something to get what I want.

At any rate, this crude analogy I'm using is falling short on your understanding, because of emotions involved, so perhaps I'll have to choose something else that demonstrates one particular choice, for one particular very narrow right, doesn't outweigh the broader right(s) of conceived entity in this situation.

 

[E. Nato Difficile]

At any rate, this crude analogy I'm using is falling short on your understanding, because of emotions involved

No, it's falling short because it's a very poor analogy.

You're comparing a fertilized egg with a child of toddler age. The basic difference here is the most important one, the fact that the fertilized egg is inside a mother. Since the mother is of no significance to pro-lifers, they act oblivious when someone points out that this is a crucial distinction.

Or maybe you're not acting.

-Nato

 

[kreative37]

No, I feel that Abortion is murder. The government shouldn't support it.

 

[Father Heathen]

No, I feel that Abortion is murder. The government shouldn't support it.

Kudos to you for saving children from neglectful and abusive situations by adopting them.

 

[Sententia]

No, I feel that Abortion is murder. The government shouldn't support it.

Neither Abortion or Murder are feelings.

Why do you feel abortion should be murder? In what ways do you think the government supports it? Why should a woman's opinion over what should happen with her life and her body be less important than what you a complete stranger decide should happen? Why do you think you are better informed and more capable of making that decision then the woman herself being advised by her doctor? Why do you think your place is between a woman and her fertilized egg?

How can you possibly understand the scope and situation of every person who would have to go through having an abortion and still consider yourself rational and objective?

 

[Alceste]

As soon as carrots demonstrate consistent and ongoing potential to turn into developing humans, I will be glad to address this question. At that point, I will likely tell you, 'yes, let us consider the rights of these organisms' as if they are (nearly) human.

An anti-abortion argument based on potential does not withstand rational scrutiny. Every human cell has the potential (DNA) to turn into a developing human. Every sperm has the potential to fertilize an egg. Are individual sperm entitled to basic human rights? The vast majority of zygotes (the phase before implantation) abort naturally and do not go on to become people. Did they really have the potential to turn into humans?

If you carry your potentiality argument to its logical conclusion, the most ethical thing we can do is ensure that every single human egg is fertilized, successfully implanted in the uterus and carried to term. Even that solution would require a monumental holocaust of human sperm.

Or, perhaps you mean to say that natural things that happen spontaneously are automatically more ethically acceptable than natural things that happen by choice and human intervention. If that is indeed your position, I challenge you to justify it with a rational explanation of why that would be so. Is a garden morally inferior to a wilderness?

 

[Alceste]

Via conception.



She doesn't lose all rights. She deserves considerations for all things that are occurring to her. If she desires to end life of conceived entity growing inside of her, she a) can consider it, that ought to be discussed and b) ultimately she can do it, just like ultimately I can put toddlers on spikes if I desire. So can you. I don't lost that 'right' just because you disagree. But if I wanted to exercise that right, chances are (I think), you'd want to discuss it with me as if there could be other options that don't have to be about destroying something to get what I want.

At any rate, this crude analogy I'm using is falling short on your understanding, because of emotions involved, so perhaps I'll have to choose something else that demonstrates one particular choice, for one particular very narrow right, doesn't outweigh the broader right(s) of conceived entity in this situation.

Men can be so footloose and fancy free when it comes to deciding what women should tolerate happening to their bodies against their will. Can you imagine squeezing a football out of your rectum? If you woke up one day and discovered there was a real possibility you might have to do this in a few months time unless you pop in to your doctor for a quick injection as soon as possible, I bet you would be on the phone immediately to book an appointment.

I mean you would have to REALLY want a football to go through that. Nobody's going to go to all that trouble to make a football for somebody else to play with.