Should Muslims acknowledge the Jews sovereignty over Israel?

[Agnostic75]

Shalom, in the Bible, various passages shows that the land of Israel is for the Jewish people. and if it is stated likewise in the Quran, then it answers your question.

But Jews do not occupy nearly all of the land that God promised them as an everlasting covenant. That means that the covenant is not in effect.

 

[metis]

But Jews do not occupy nearly all of the land that God promised them as an everlasting covenant. That means that the covenant is not in effect.

The Covenant is a promise to the people Israel and not to the land.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Also worth noting per the discussion above is that it were the Romans who destroyed the last standing Temple in Jerusalem, the same Rome which is the foundation of Christianity. Which makes sense from the whole replacement theology propaganda. Destroy a people, claim their worldly and spiritual treasures as your own.

I'll give you this much, I certainly didn't stick to the issue brought up in the OP. Maybe I should have but I found this more interesting. The claim that Rome was the "foundation of Christianity" is preposterous. For 300 years our faith persevered DESPITE the active persecution of the Roman empire. It was only after Constantine that things changed.

 

[Caladan]

I'll give you this much, I certainly didn't stick to the issue brought up in the OP. Maybe I should have but I found this more interesting. The claim that Rome was the "foundation of Christianity" is preposterous. For 300 years our faith persevered DESPITE the active persecution of the Roman empire. It was only after Constantine that things changed.

What you really mean to say is that 'your' faith was started by Jews 2000 years ago, and its original form was with people who were part of Jewish society who practiced the Jewish religion. Later gentiles joined in and received a watered down version of the Jewish Christianity which was easy enough for them to follow and inauthentic enough for it to cause the first serious division in early Christianity. Later on these early Christians were persecuted by the Romans until the time in which Christianity gained a social momentum which brought it into the top of the food chain: The Roman Imperial system. From that point, the early Christianity of almost 2000 years ago gave way to an Imperial religion, the religion of empires and mega churches which for over a millennium raped every original faith on the face of the earth, conquered their land, massacred their people and built luxurious monuments in the name of a poor Jewish carpenter from Galilee who preached Love for God and (the Jewish) folk. The first 300 years of Christianity have nothing to do with modern Christianity which is the spawn of 1700 years of Roman inheritance.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

What you really mean to say is that 'your' faith was started by Jews 2000 years ago, and its original form was with people who were part of Jewish society who practiced the Jewish religion. Later gentiles joined in and received a watered down version of the Jewish Christianity which was easy enough for them to follow and inauthentic enough for it to cause the first serious division in early Christianity. Later on these early Christians were persecuted by the Romans until the time in which Christianity gained a social momentum which brought it into the top of the food chain: The Roman Imperial system. From that point, the early Christianity of almost 2000 years ago gave way to an Imperial religion, the religion of empires and mega churches which for over a millennium raped every original faith on the face of the earth, conquered their land, massacred their people and built luxurious monuments in the name of a poor Jewish carpenter from Galilee who preached Love for God and (the Jewish) folk. The first 300 years of Christianity have nothing to do with modern Christianity which is the spawn of 1700 years of Roman inheritance.

What significant changes in Christian theology to you believe came about in around 300 AD? And by "significant" I mean doctrines that would be considered "heretical" by Jesus and the disciples.

 

[Caladan]

What significant changes in Christian theology to you believe came about in around 300 AD? And by "significant" I mean doctrines that would be considered "heretical" by Jesus and the disciples.

Oh, you mean other than relentlessly trying to eradicate all forms of Christianity which diverted from the central Roman church?

 

[dantech]

No. Here are a few links on the history of Yiddish, Aramaic. and Hebrew - languages about which you appear to be embarrassingly ignorant.

Speaking of history: to whom did Palestine belong in the late 19th and early 20th century? You persist in avoiding the question.

Since he believes Yiddish predates Aramaic and Hebrew, he will probably say Palestine belonged to the Spaniards or the French in the late 19th and early 20th century.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

Oh, you mean other than relentlessly trying to eradicate all forms of Christianity which diverted from the central Roman church?

Christianity is built on faith in Jesus not the sins of those who claim to practice it.

 

[Caladan]

Christianity is built on faith in Jesus not the sins of those who claim to practice it.

You mean to say that it is built on thin air. As is repeatedly demonstrated by your Unchristian behavior. What good is it for humanity if men who claim to have faith in Jesus have persecuted, discriminated, robbed, or alienated others? If these people do not act or speak as Jesus taught then they are neither 'Christian', nor are they really a favorable human company.

 

[Sleeppy]

The Covenant is a promise to the people Israel and not to the land.

Our covenant is for the Earth, the heavens, and all flesh. The prophets attested to each, in the subtleties of their own perceptions.

But I'm telling you the full truth of the covenant. And a simple truth that you may tell yourself and others, as well; God (according to His names) is Supreme over all things. He performs fate within the confines of Himself! Our all-knowing, time-space-creating, being-sustaining Father. Glory.

All of what I say is verifiable by Scripture and observation.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

You mean to say that it is built on thin air. As is repeatedly demonstrated by your Unchristian behavior. What good is it for humanity if men who claim to have faith in Jesus have persecuted, discriminated, robbed, or alienated others? If these people do not act or speak as Jesus taught people to then they are neither 'Christian', nor are they really a favorable human company.

The primary "goodness" that we believe is found in Jesus is forgiveness in the eyes God and a restored relationship with him. Jesus also says that murders and robbers will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, regardless of who they claim to follow. I'd agree that throughout Christians have been a "mixed bag" in how they've represented JC. Their job, in their eyes, has been to help usher in the Kingdom. When they fail to do that some people obviously question the existence of the God they claim to believe in. Jews familiar with the Hebrew Bible should not find it strange however that God uses sinners to change the world. The OT is replete with leaders of the Israelite nation who were shall we say "less than perfect." What do you say about the God that used a man like Samson to lead his people?

 

[Caladan]

The primary "goodness" that we believe is found in Jesus is forgiveness in the eyes God and a restored relationship with him. Jesus also says that murders and robbers will not inherit the Kingdom of Heaven, regardless of who they claim to follow.

I don't find any value or content in the above, you better try to make your point better.
I'm only left with the facts. Christianity is a Rome based religion which was heavily involved in destroying Jerusalem and causing the Jewish diaspora, while marginalizing the Jews and claiming their cultural ethos as their own along with their scriptures and prophetic writings.
Sure I'm good with that. In your propaganda God has said nothing to the People of Israel for 2000 years, well... by my account that's still a thousand years worth of relationship that Christian gentiles never had. Now in previous centuries (well why go that far, in the previous century, singular), your propaganda would give you license to kill me, in today world it means nothing to me, just another piece in the jigsaw of superstitions and bigotry.

 

[Sleeppy]

I don't find any value or content in the above, you better try to make your point better.
I'm only left with the facts. Christianity is a Rome based religion which was heavily involved in destroying Jerusalem and causing the Jewish diaspora, while marginalizing the Jews and claiming their cultural ethos as their own along with their scriptures and prophetic writings.
Sure I'm good with that. In your propaganda God has said nothing to the People of Israel for 2000 years, well... by my account that's still a thousand years worth of relationship that Christian gentiles never had. Now in previous centuries (well why go that far, in the previous century, singular), your propaganda would give you license to kill me, in today world it means nothing to me, just another piece in the jigsaw of superstitions and bigotry.

If you knew that the culture of God is given to all things, you could've condensed your response here. Then all superstition, bigotry, and elitism is avoided.

 

[Caladan]

If you knew that the culture of God is given to all things, you could've condensed your response here. Then all superstition, bigotry, and elitism is avoided.

If only you could appreciate the attributes of metaphors, ideals, beliefs, and debates you would not bother me with this fluffy reply.
Sure, life, God, however you wish to label it belongs to everyone. I have no beef with that, no argument with that. My posts are intended to parade Peacemaker's (much peace he succeeded to bring to this thread...) ideals and beliefs, especially to himself. They have no theological or ideological merit on their own that I post on the forum in general.

 

[metis]

Our covenant is for the Earth, the heavens, and all flesh. The prophets attested to each, in the subtleties of their own perceptions.

But I'm telling you the full truth of the covenant. And a simple truth that you may tell yourself and others, as well; God (according to His names) is Supreme over all things. He performs fate within the confines of Himself! Our all-knowing, time-space-creating, being-sustaining Father. Glory.

All of what I say is verifiable by Scripture and observation.

The Covenant covered in Torah only deals with those who are circumcised, which is the mark of the Covenant done on the 8th day after birth for boys only.

Now, whether God has a covenant with any others is quite hypothetically possible at least.

 

[-Peacemaker-]

If only you could appreciate the attributes of metaphors, ideals, beliefs, and debates you would not bother me with this fluffy reply.
Sure, life, God, however you wish to label it belongs to everyone. I have no beef with that, no argument with that. My posts are intended to parade Peacemaker's (much peace he succeeded to bring to this thread...) ideals and beliefs, especially to himself. They have no theological or ideological merit on their own that I post on the forum in general.

The relationship that Israel has with Yahweh today could never be described as "personal". I'd argue that the God of biblical times, in general, had a very personal relationship with Israel. He actively demonstrated his presence among them through the ark/temple. I feel like I'm giving him the benefit of any doubt to say that the covenant is now "null and void". The only other option is that it never existed in the first place which would indeed render my faith useless as Jesus is supposed to be the fulfillment of OT prophecies/promises built on the idea of a covenant relationship. How does that tie into the OP? It's a question of who are truly the descendants of Abraham.

 

[metis]

The relationship that Israel has with Yahweh today could never be described as "personal".

Why do you believe that?

I feel like I'm giving him the benefit of any doubt to say that the covenant is now "null and void".

Then you're portraying God as a liar as the scriptures say that the Covenant is "forever" and "perpetual".

 

[Shermana]

If you knew that the culture of God is given to all things, you could've condensed your response here. Then all superstition, bigotry, and elitism is avoided.

The culture of God is given to all things? What is all things? What does that even mean? What is the culture of God? Protestant Christianity?

 

[Shermana]

It's a question of who are truly the descendants of Abraham.

What are you trying to say exactly?

Were the Jews at the time of the Roman conquest not truly descendents of Abraham? Were there prophets during the times of the Maccabees? Was the fact that God allowed the Greeks to desecrate the Temple a sign that He had left them?

Doesn't the Torah specifically say that God will return the Jews to glory even after times of punishment and exile?

Metis:

Then you're portraying God as a liar as the scriptures say that the Covenant is "forever" and "perpetual".

Indeed, Christians are often willing to throw God under a bus in order to supplant us in their wishful spiritual thinking.

 

[Flankerl]

I find it rather refreshing to have christian replacement theology going after us in the forum for a change.

All these muslim jewish threads get boring after some time.