Should Scotland be Independent?

[Amechania]

This is true. It is also not really relevant. No good comes from trying to replay such historic disputes. The Protestant majority of Ulster today are not responsible for the persecutions of the past, any more than most of the Roman Catholic population are not response for IRA terrorism.

.si the animosity is a thing if the past in your view?

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

No. There are still tensions. But it remains the case that trying to judge these conflicts simply by what happened hundreds of years ago is the wrong way to go. The current Protestant population of Ulster do have rights. They should not be treated simply as invading colonists whose claims can be dismissed, any more than non-native Americans should be viewed as having no claim on the territory of the USA because their ancestors dispossessed the native Americans.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This is true. It is also not really relevant. No good comes from trying to replay such historic disputes. The Protestant majority of Ulster today are not responsible for the persecutions of the past, any more than most of the Roman Catholic population are not response for IRA terrorism.

Of course it's relevant. Personally, I think it's long past time for the UK to be dissolved and all the countries that make it up to go their separate ways and Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to be united. It's ludicrous and offensive that a colonial power such as the UK is still in existence. I want to see a rejuvenation of the Gaelic culture and the Gaelic language. The English can go back to England, if they're so keen on clinging to their British identity.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No. There are still tensions. But it remains the case that trying to judge these conflicts simply by what happened hundreds of years ago is the wrong way to go. The current Protestant population of Ulster do have rights. They should not be treated simply as invading colonists whose claims can be dismissed, any more than non-native Americans should be viewed as having no claim on the territory of the USA because their ancestors dispossessed the native Americans.

Um, we killed off most of the Native Americans either through wars and massacres or due to the diseases we brought over that they had no immunity towards. So there's almost none of them left. I wouldn't have a problem turning over their ancestral lands to them, though. They surely would take better care of them than the US currently is. They deserve better than the pathetic ghettos, casinos and alcoholism we give to them.

The Protestant Brits in Northern Ireland are the descendents of colonists and as long as they still support the remnants of the imperialist UK, they're part of the problem. However, I don't support violence.

 

[Aquitaine]

Of course it's relevant. Personally, I think it's long past time for the UK to be dissolved and all the countries that make it up to go their separate ways and Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to be united. It's ludicrous and offense that a colonial power such as the UK is still in existence. I want to see a rejuvenation of the Gaelic culture and the Gaelic language. The English can go back to England.

Out of curiosity, do you share the same view for your fellow modern Americans in relation to the Native Americans?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Out of curiosity, do you share the same view for your fellow modern Americans in relation to the Native Americans?

See my post above. I don't care about the entity of the United States of America.

 

[Aquitaine]

See my post above.

How much of their land would you be happy to give back, how far down that line of thinking does one go (as in penalising/relocating modern day people for the actions of their ancestors)?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

How much of their land would you be happy to give back, how far down that line of thinking does one go (as in penalising/relocating modern day people for the actions of their ancestors)?

Did you read what I said about there being almost none of them left? Who would we give it to? It's the same with Hawaii. There's only about 160,000 people that identify as indigenous Hawaiian alone. I fear that we've killed off too many for that to be an option. But I don't have a problem with turning over control of their lands to the indigenous people.

But, anyway, this is a distraction from the matter at hand. I don't care what happens to the United States. I might end up leaving this country, anyway.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

Of course it's relevant. Personally, I think it's long past time for the UK to be dissolved and all the countries that make it up to go their separate ways and Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland to be united. It's ludicrous and offensive that a colonial power such as the UK is still in existence. I want to see a rejuvenation of the Gaelic culture and the Gaelic language. The English can go back to England, if they're so keen on clinging to their British identity.

This is absurd and unhistorical. They may have begun as colonists but they now have roots in Ulster going back centuries. As it is no fault of the current loyalists what their ancestors did, it is patently unfair simply to take their property or suppress their voice.

It is simplistic in the extreme to just say that the relationship of Britain to Ulster or Ulster to Britain is one of imperialism. Ireland and Ulster were/are an integral part of the United Kingdom, not some subject colony. The people of Northern Ireland have a complex and rooted history and identity which cannot just be dismissed as the product of British imperialism.

Why does it matter how few native Americans their are? Why should this few not have all their native lands back (most of the USA)?

And why should we not just say that Republicans, through terrorism, forfeited their rights to any say in Ulster, if the Loyalists are to have any voice taken away from them due to the actions of their forebears?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

This is absurd and unhistorical. They may have begun as colonists but they now roots in Ulster going back centuries. As it is no fault of the current loyalists what their ancestors did, it is patently unfair simply to take their property or suppress their voice.

It is simplistic in the extreme to just say that the relationship of Britain to Ulster or Ulster to Britain is one of imperialism. Ireland and Ulster were/are an integral part of the United Kingdom, not some subject colony. The people of Northern Ireland have a complex and rooted history and identity which cannot just be dismissed as the product of British imperialism.

Why does it matter how view native Americans their are? Why should this few not have all their native lands back (most of the USA)?

And why should we not just say that Republicans, through terrorism, forfeited their rights to any say in Ulster, if the Loyalists are to have any voice taken away from them due to the actions of their forebears?

I didn't say take away the property of the Protestant Brits. What I'm most interested in is the unification of Ireland and the dissolving of the UK. If they want to still live there, they should be allowed, but they would be citizens of Ireland.

I already addressed the Native American issue. If there's a feasible plan to give them their land back - okay, then. But that's another topic.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

I didn't say take away the property of the Protestant Brits. What I'm most interested in is the unification of Ireland and the dissolving of the UK. If they want to still live there, they should be allowed, but they would be citizens of Ireland.

Why though? Why is it your business, and why do you no respect for the claims and rights and identity of Ulster loyalists? Is it simply you have bought into some simplistic idea of underdog and oppressor?

I already addressed the Native American issue. If there's a feasible plan to give them their land back - okay, then. But that's another topic.

It is another topic in this context. It is an analogy to imply that your position is ridiculous. The land we are talking about is almost all of the USA.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

Also, there is something darkly reminiscent to me of the sort of nationalism one finds in unsavoury groups, like the BNP, in this total disregard for the identity of Ulster Protestants. It reminds me of the talk of those who like to say that immigrants to Britain who have not assimilated are not really British, even if they are second or third generations immigrants, and can be sent back to the nations whose cultures they most identify with.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Why though? Why is it your business, and why do you no respect for the claims and rights and identity of Ulster loyalists? Is it simply you have bought into some simplistic idea of underdog and oppressor?

"Why is it my business"? I'm allowed to have an opinion. Plus, I have ancestry from those isles so I think it's fair to have an interest in the lands where some of my ancestors hailed from.

Me caring about what the Loyalists want is like me caring about what Zionists want. I'm opposed to both of their movements.

It is another topic in this context. It is an analogy to imply that your position is ridiculous. The land we are talking about is almost all of the USA.

So?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Also, there is something darkly reminiscent to me of the sort of nationalism one finds in unsavoury groups, like the BNP, in this total disregard for the identity of Ulster Protestants. It reminds me of the talk of those who like to say that immigrants to Britain who have not assimilated are not really British, even if they are second or third generations immigrants, and can be sent back to the nations whose cultures they most identify with.

Well, if they don't want to become part of the countries they've moved to and wish to remain separate and live as if they're still in their homelands, why should they stay in a country they don't see as home?

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

Well, it does seem your views have been shown to be silly and extreme, combining the worst of left-wing anti-Israeli and pro-Republican positions with aspects of far-right extreme nationalism. But, anyway, the Loyalists are not quite like recent immigrants to Britain. They are in their homeland culturally as well as simply through the rights of citizenship. As I said, you seem to have a completely unhistorical view, in which to live in Ireland one must be of Irish-Gaelic stock and subscribe to a Gaelic, Catholic culture. The Ulster Protestants, as I have said many times, have lived in Ulster for centuries, forging their own identities and roots there. Ulster is as much Loyalists-Protestant in culture and history as it is Irish-Catholic.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Well, it does seem your views have been shown to be silly and extreme, combining the worst of left-wing anti-Israeli and pro-Republican positions with aspects of far-right extreme nationalism. But, anyway, the Loyalists are not quite like recent immigrants to Britain. They are in their homeland. As I said, you seem to have a completely unhistorical view, in which to live in Ireland one must be of Irish-Gaelic stock and subscribe to a Gaelic, Catholic culture. The Ulster Protestants, as I have said many times, have lived in Ulster for centuries, forging their own identities and roots there. Ulster is as much Loyalists-Protestant in culture and history as it is Irish-Catholic.

I'm an anarcho-communist and anti-globalism. I want to see the dissolution of large, unwieldy state and imperial entities and the return of a local focus, with the revival of native folkways. Your local community should come first in all things. No more of this globalization borg garbage which is destroying humanity and the planet.

I'm not interested in your apologetics for the British Empire.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

'As your attempt to paint this discussion as being simply about British Imperialism has failed, then your comments are on that score are foolish. Indeed, your continued resistance to even acknowledging the Ulster Protestants have legitimate claims, rights, or historic identity makes you more akin to an Imperialist than me.

I'm actually quite decentralist, actually. The irony, though, of Scottish independence as well as Irish unity is that they are EU nations and the EU is a centralist entity, bent on the creation of a federal state, fundamentally opposed to not just the nation state but to real local and regional autonomy.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

'As your attempt to paint this discussion as being simply about British Imperialism has failed, then your comments are on that score are foolish. Indeed, your continued resistance to even acknowledging the Ulster Protestants have legitimate claims, rights, or historic identity makes you more akin to an Imperialist than me.

I don't care for identities based on imperialism and colonialism. Now ask me if I'm "proud to be American".

I'm actually quite decentralist, actually. The irony, though, of Scottish independence as well as Irish unity is that they are EU nations and the EU is a centralist entity, bent on the creation of a federal state, fundamentally opposed to not just the nation state but to real local and regional autonomy.

The EU needs to be dissolved.

 

[oldbadger]

Unsupervised Scots?
<shudder>
I don't live there so I won't vote.
They'll decide for themselves.

That's it.
Exactly.:yes:

Last week the Scots were divided around the 50-50 mark; when banks and big companies mostly declared that they would send their HQs over into England, the divide didn't move much.

Then the big retailers said that their products would cost more in Scotland and the 'Pro-No' poll shot upwards.

....... and I'm amazed at how many Scots have declared that they don't want to lose their Queen.

 

[Jeremy Taylor]

I don't care for identities based on imperialism and colonialism. Now ask me if I'm "proud to be American".

But this is silly. To just equate a historic and rooted identity with imperialism and colonialism alone is absurdly simplistic.

The EU needs to be dissolved.

I agree.