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Should taxpayers help restore old religous structures?

Wandered Off

Sporadic Driveby Member
This article talks about how many old church buildings are falling into disrepair, creating a burden for aging and dwindling church members. There's an organization called the "Partnership for Sacred Places" that is trying to get government funding to help with the repairs.
"Many of our churches are 150 years old or older, and many others were built in the 1950s, when no one gave a thought to handicap accessibility," she said.

Most mainline denominations have similar funds, partly because local congregations can't pay for work they might have been able to afford in the past.

"A lot of these churches have shrunk from 500 members to 100 members, or from 800 members to 200 members," said Robert Jaeger, executive director of the Partnership for Sacred Places. "They look at the trend lines and they see the decline in membership and wonder, 'Gosh, in 10 or 15 years are we going to be gone?'"

Jaeger's group strives to prevent that, primarily through an intensive, yearlong training with smaller churches designed to show them how they can find new ways to pay for repairs and maintenance.

The partnership's main theme comes from research it conducted showing that roughly 80 percent of the people who use church facilities for things like after-school programs or Alcoholics Anonymous meetings are not members of the individual congregations.

"Our larger task is really to convince America's leaders that these sacred places are public assets, not just Presbyterian places of worship, or Methodist, or Jewish, or Catholic, but something for the entire community," he said.
Congregations struggle in aging, decaying churches - Yahoo! News

If they succeed in convincing leaders that the churches are "public assets," I assume that implies taxpayer funding for repair. Does it then mean that the churches will not be allowed to discriminate, for example? Will the government get a say in how the churches are run, or do they expect money and no interference or strings?
 

Smoke

Done here.
It seems to me that Christian groups and denominations could use some of the money they spend on political campaigns to help out their brother and sister congregations that are in reduced circumstances.

I don't see any point in the public's bailing out random congregations, but I could see helping to maintain buildings that are historically or architecturally significant, provided there are strings attached. The church could be required, for instance, to allow free public tours, or the church could be deeded to the city with the proviso that the congregation may hold regular services there.

But then, if a church is truly historically or architecturally significant, the congregation could probably raise money with paid tours and public appeals. And any church could rent its facilities for weddings, receptions, meetings, and so on.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
Even as a Christian I say no, unless it is some kind of landmark or something. We can't have it both ways.
 

jmvizanko

Uber Tool
No to the examples you put forward.

However, I'm an atheist saying that I am ok with restoring universally recognized historical landmarks, regardless of the fact that their magnificence is tarnished by the fact that they were built to honor silly gods. As for megachurches, why are they even tax exempt again?
 

Wandered Off

Sporadic Driveby Member
I'm an atheist saying that I am ok with restoring universally recognized historical landmarks
I agree, although it becomes a judgment call as to what's considered a "universally recognized historical landmark." As much as I loathe the slippery slope argument, this might be the place for it.
 

enchanted_one1975

Resident Lycanthrope
As others have said, it should be more than a religious structure. If it has historical significance then it could be okay. If you do for one faith though you need to do for other faiths as well. Don't restore a Christian building and then ignore a Hebrew or Pagan building.
 

jmvizanko

Uber Tool
As much as I loathe the slippery slope argument, this might be the place for it.

Well I'm talking "could be considered a natural wonder of the world," like the cathedral in Cologne. Not your ma and pa Catholic church on the hill. Because there's no gray area between the two...

Of course, we could just tear down all religious buildings and 1500 ft tall stainless steel A's for atheist in their place.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
This article talks about how many old church buildings are falling into disrepair, creating a burden for aging and dwindling church members. There's an organization called the "Partnership for Sacred Places" that is trying to get government funding to help with the repairs.

A few things come to mind when I read the article quote you gave:

"Many of our churches are 150 years old or older, and many others were built in the 1950s, when no one gave a thought to handicap accessibility," she said.

Most mainline denominations have similar funds, partly because local congregations can't pay for work they might have been able to afford in the past.

"A lot of these churches have shrunk from 500 members to 100 members, or from 800 members to 200 members," said Robert Jaeger, executive director of the Partnership for Sacred Places. "They look at the trend lines and they see the decline in membership and wonder, 'Gosh, in 10 or 15 years are we going to be gone?'"
Replace the word "church" with "public school" and the argument would be just as valid... and, IMO, give more of a justification for public funds, since the public status of the institutions in question would be completely certain.

The partnership's main theme comes from research it conducted showing that roughly 80 percent of the people who use church facilities for things like after-school programs or Alcoholics Anonymous meetings are not members of the individual congregations.
This seems to imply that churches' only sources of revenue are its members. Often, when a church runs these sorts of programs, they receive funding that they wouldn't otherwise get. For instance, I know that locally, United Way funds a number of charitable programs run through churches, and many denominations have their own charitable funds to pay for these sorts of programs run by individual parishes.

Also, often, after-school or other "extra-curricular" programs will have user fees attached to them. For instance, when I took my marriage preparation course, we had to pay a fee to the organization that ran it.

I agree, although it becomes a judgment call as to what's considered a "universally recognized historical landmark." As much as I loathe the slippery slope argument, this might be the place for it.
Well, one bump on the slippery slope that immediately comes to mind is some sort of historical designation for buildings, which many places have.

I think that if the government sets up some sort of fund to help subsidize the cost of maintaining heritage/historical buildings that are privately owned, fine - churches should be able to line up for the money and make their case just like anyone else.

However, I think that one thing that should be factored in is the organization's ability to pay... and in the case of churches, I'd probably extend "organization" beyond the individual parish. I can't help thinking back to a few cases that occurred in Toronto recently where Catholic parishes (mainly in cases like you describe: old church buildings with dwindling membership) were forced to close due to financial trouble... but from what I recall, the biggest nail in their coffin was the diocese itself, which refused to waive any of the diocesian fees that the churches owed. My feeling is that if those who are supposed to be stewards of a church building don't care enough to put any of their own money in to save it, then I don't think that the government should feel an obligation to make up the shortfall. I don't want to be in a situation where we end up subsidizing the operations of churches and denominations who purposely undercut their captial maintenance budgets and divert the funds that they could've spent repairing their buildings.
 

it's_sam

Freak of Nature
I think I would have to agree with preserving history regardless of how it was used. Either way it's something to learn from. On the other hand if other things are needed for active religions they should focus on whats more important first wich is the people struggling.
 

MurphtheSurf

Active Member
enchanted_one1975.gif


Is that a pink or purple triangle?
 

it's_sam

Freak of Nature
I'm not possitive murph but i think it's the gay symbol. Atleast its the one Hitler used in camps to mark them, pink triangle for gays and the star for jews.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
To the OP, don't taxpayers subsidize the repair of all sorts of buildings? I know there are tax credits for restoring historic homes, for instance. I don't see why churches should be any different.
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
In the UK Historic building are supported by English Heritage. Local councils and other bodies may also subscribe to especially important buildings.
Many Churches are helped in this way.

The Catholic Church must be very pleased they do not have to upkeep the earlier ones taken by the church of England under Henry Vlll.

some have annual costs of over £1000,000 per year

It would be a sad day if the few early American churches were lost to posterity, for the lack of proper upkeep.
 

Duck

Well-Known Member
This article talks about how many old church buildings are falling into disrepair, creating a burden for aging and dwindling church members. There's an organization called the "Partnership for Sacred Places" that is trying to get government funding to help with the repairs.



Congregations struggle in aging, decaying churches - Yahoo! News

If they succeed in convincing leaders that the churches are "public assets," I assume that implies taxpayer funding for repair. Does it then mean that the churches will not be allowed to discriminate, for example? Will the government get a say in how the churches are run, or do they expect money and no interference or strings?

Assuming that those religious structures are architecturally and aesthetically pleasing, I have no problem with those structures being opened to the public as a government owned building. I also have no problem with the government providing a loan to be paid back with interest.

If those structures are "public assets" then they need to be subject to the same restrictions that any other public organization is subject to including all appropriate non-discrimination regulations.

I of course assume that the various congregations in churches described as "public assets" will desire to have preferential treatment. These congregations will expect the government to pay for the repairs, but will want to prevent any gay architects or contractor personnel from working on the building because well, obviously you can't be gay and swing a hammer for the lord. Or some junk.
 

Zadok

Zadok
It seems to me that Christian groups and denominations could use some of the money they spend on political campaigns to help out their brother and sister congregations that are in reduced circumstances.

I don't see any point in the public's bailing out random congregations, but I could see helping to maintain buildings that are historically or architecturally significant, provided there are strings attached. The church could be required, for instance, to allow free public tours, or the church could be deeded to the city with the proviso that the congregation may hold regular services there.

But then, if a church is truly historically or architecturally significant, the congregation could probably raise money with paid tours and public appeals. And any church could rent its facilities for weddings, receptions, meetings, and so on.

I agree - if it is publically funded then it belongs to the public. I also believe that not paying taxes is not public funding.

Zadok
 
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