Should the LHP DIR have a Demonolatry sub-forum?

[SabahTheLoner]

Demonolatry is different from Satanism is the respect that Satan isn't the patron deity of the religion, although they can be categorized as Satanists since Satan is an entity within Demonolatry. It's a loosely organized religion with many members being well over 30 in age. As the name would suggest, is a system based on demon "worship" (although the religion has more emphasis on respect than worship) and every Demonolater(ess) typically chooses a patron demon. It's very polytheistic and takes deities from old Christian grimores and legends, as well as the Geotia and other sources about demons. Many Demonolaters believe that demons became labeled as evil under the influence of Christianity in Europe and the Christian entities were once old gods of Pagan belief systems. So Demonolatry is essentially a "dark" Pagan-like sub-category of Satanic thought, but distinct from Satanism.

Should RF add a Demonolatry sub-forum?

 

[crossfire]

I'm not against having a demonolatry DIR. With daimons being "earth spirits," I'm thinking it would belong in the Pagan DIR, but I'm not sure whether it would be accepted there or not. If it wouldn't be accepted there, it could be here in the LHP DIR.

 

[Liu]

I wouldn't mind, and I think it better fits this DIR. How many actual demonolators do we have here, though? (not like that matters, our other sub-DIRs don't all have many members, anyway).

Also, wouldn't a theistic Satanist who has Satan as their main deity but also works with / reveres demons be a demonolator as well? I would assume that most people who work with demons in a respectful manner are Satanists (or at least LHPers) of one kind or another.

 

[SabahTheLoner]

Also, wouldn't a theistic Satanist who has Satan as their main deity but also works with / reveres demons be a demonolator as well? I would assume that most people who work with demons in a respectful manner are Satanists (or at least LHPers) of one kind or another.

I guess that would count but it would depend on who you'd ask. Demonolatry is considered LHP but many demonolaters don't seem to want to be considered Satanists for one reason or another. Similarly many theistic Satanists seem to make use of Demonolatry resources yet don't consider themselves demonolaters. (Kind of how traditional witches and Wiccans have witchcraft in common but not all witches are Wiccans and vice versa)

 

[Mindmaster]

I wouldn't mind, and I think it better fits this DIR. How many actual demonolators do we have here, though? (not like that matters, our other sub-DIRs don't all have many members, anyway).

Also, wouldn't a theistic Satanist who has Satan as their main deity but also works with / reveres demons be a demonolator as well? I would assume that most people who work with demons in a respectful manner are Satanists (or at least LHPers) of one kind or another.

As far as the DIR, I guess the thing is... Does this really have that much of an audience?

I question these things with other DIRs like the Communist DIR, etc...

As far as your other statements: Yes, and yes. You could arguably consider me both, but I consider myself a Satanist more because I do not share in the pagan-y views most Demonolators have. Many of them are pantheists, syncretic, or incorporate spiritual critters that we have either limited knowledge of or don't really fit into a Satanic conception. Also, it is VERY rare that two Dems have the same beliefs. I don't really know, but I think it can happen... I just don't know if it needs to.

 

[crossfire]

Another option might be within the Other Religious Movements and Practices DIR
Other Religious Movements and Practices DIR

Not all Demonolaters are LHP, and have various other reasons for summoning Daimons.

 

[crossfire]

I'm not sure how well LHP and non-LHP demonolaters would get along in the same DIR.

 

[Liu]

Many of them are pantheists, syncretic, or incorporate spiritual critters that we have either limited knowledge of or don't really fit into a Satanic conception.

That wouldn't make them non-LHP, though. The non-Satanist demonolators I so far encountered were typically either chaos magicians or ONA-folk, which arguably could both be considered LHP.
For chaos magicians it would be especially common to incorporate whatever entity they like. Is someone a demonolator who one day works with the Goetia, the other day with the characters of some video game? I rarely do rituals whatsover, but I have actually once done one to some demons and a video game character as they all stand for healing. And I've also done one to some Greek deity once. According to my metaphysical assumptions it shouldn't make a difference when a character was invented.
Not saying that I'm any typical as a demonolator, but I kinda doubt that would fit any better in the Pagan DIR.

I'm not sure how well LHP and non-LHP demonolaters would get along in the same DIR.

Depending on the definition, one could say that there are no RHP demonolators - or that there would be no LHP demonolators as demonolatry literally means "demon-worship", and worshipping something outside of oneself is un-LHPy.
Same as the only real RHP-Satanists would be reverse Christians, or that the only real LHP-Satanists would be atheists.
Therefore, what do you have in mind regarding non-LHP demonolators?

 

[crossfire]

That wouldn't make them non-LHP, though. The non-Satanist demonolators I so far encountered were typically either chaos magicians or ONA-folk, which arguably could both be considered LHP.
For chaos magicians it would be especially common to incorporate whatever entity they like. Is someone a demonolator who one day works with the Goetia, the other day with the characters of some video game? I rarely do rituals whatsover, but I have actually once done one to some demons and a video game character as they all stand for healing. And I've also done one to some Greek deity once. According to my metaphysical assumptions it shouldn't make a difference when a character was invented.
Not saying that I'm any typical as a demonolator, but I kinda doubt that would fit any better in the Pagan DIR.

Depending on the definition, one could say that there are no RHP demonolators - or that there would be no LHP demonolators as demonolatry literally means "demon-worship", and worshipping something outside of oneself is un-LHPy.
Same as the only real RHP-Satanists would be reverse Christians, or that the only real LHP-Satanists would be atheists.
Therefore, what do you have in mind regarding non-LHP demonolators?

I was thinking about those who summon goetic demons in order to abusively dominate them. However, they technically wouldn't be invoking them to worship them, so really couldn't be considered demonalators, (except maybe in a twisted BDSM sort of way.)

 

[Mindmaster]

I was thinking about those who summon goetic demons in order to abusively dominate them. However, they technically wouldn't be invoking them to worship them, so really couldn't be considered demonalators, (except maybe in a twisted BDSM sort of way.)

Demonalators do not use the methods that ceremonial magician would use, so there is no correlation. Theurgic magic practices are completely different, and there isn't much in the way of books on the subject either. Though the method is rather simple, it isn't commonly used. In any case, there isn't any danger of pissing off the intended spirit/daemon/divinity like there is using the crusty old way of doing things - banishing, for example, would be something a theistic Satanist / Dem would find useless since there is no need to be "protected" from something which you called to earnestly, and respectfully. In many ways, our methods are just simpler...

Anyway, I consider myself a Dem in practice since Satan isn't the only person in my pantheon nor the only being that gets my attention - just the most important one. Many Dems view Satan only as an abstract "all" (like pantheists) as well, and I diverge from that greatly so I guess I am kind-of-sort-of-Dem. I just jettison the parts that make no sense to me, based on experience... naturally...

 

[Mindmaster]

That wouldn't make them non-LHP, though. The non-Satanist demonolators I so far encountered were typically either chaos magicians or ONA-folk, which arguably could both be considered LHP.
For chaos magicians it would be especially common to incorporate whatever entity they like. Is someone a demonolator who one day works with the Goetia, the other day with the characters of some video game? I rarely do rituals whatsover, but I have actually once done one to some demons and a video game character as they all stand for healing. And I've also done one to some Greek deity once. According to my metaphysical assumptions it shouldn't make a difference when a character was invented.
Not saying that I'm any typical as a demonolator, but I kinda doubt that would fit any better in the Pagan DIR.

Your points are valid, but I think the difference between Dems and the others of what you speak is basically theurgy. When I refer to pagan-y idealism it has nothing to do with their practices, many of which are identical or similar to mine, but in their worldviews which I do not share. Not to hijack the thread with another "what is LHP" discussion, but basically you aren't LHP without the antinomian traits which define the path... You also aren't really LHP in my view if you aren't pursuing that to the point of a full spiritual rebellion as well, it's not simply enough to reject the status quo (that'd just make you a punk, lol..). Likewise, I don't really consider Thelema groups LHP because they are using Christianized cermonial mechanisms which _the real_ LHP would reject. Just because someone is at odds in some way with the mainstream religions in practice, doesn't mean they are actively rejecting them -- if you think something like the LBRP isn't abhorrent and call yourself LHP you're pretty much suffering from some sort of cognitive dissonance, and we can't help you.

The problem is with all this identity politics crap people have decided to define themselves by a gaggle of catch phrases rather than knowing what any of it means, hence all they have to do is SAY they are something despite the fact they exhibit traits that are incongruent which such definitions. That's why you see so many of them have existential crises the minute even they can't keep believing their own ****. You're not LHP because you're a chaos magician, or work with Goetia (at best you are "grey"... you have nothing to do with LHP philosophy). The former doesn't believe anything, beliefs are a toy, and the latter believes in syncretized Abrahamic dogma to define their universe in drag.

The difference is in the nature of the workings, and that difference is EVERYTHING.

 

[crossfire]

Demonalators do not use the methods that ceremonial magician would use, so there is no correlation. Theurgic magic practices are completely different, and there isn't much in the way of books on the subject either. Though the method is rather simple, it isn't commonly used. In any case, there isn't any danger of pissing off the intended spirit/daemon/divinity like there is using the crusty old way of doing things - banishing, for example, would be something a theistic Satanist / Dem would find useless since there is no need to be "protected" from something which you called to earnestly, and respectfully. In many ways, our methods are just simpler...

Anyway, I consider myself a Dem in practice since Satan isn't the only person in my pantheon nor the only being that gets my attention - just the most important one. Many Dems view Satan only as an abstract "all" (like pantheists) as well, and I diverge from that greatly so I guess I am kind-of-sort-of-Dem. I just jettison the parts that make no sense to me, based on experience... naturally...

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Liu]

I was thinking about those who summon goetic demons in order to abusively dominate them. However, they technically wouldn't be invoking them to worship them, so really couldn't be considered demonalators, (except maybe in a twisted BDSM sort of way.)

Since you were talking about demonolators I didn't assume you would also include these traditional kinds.
Well, admittedly, I've even encountered chaos magicians and thelemites who use that style, but mainly those who consider them some kind of AI and no real beings.

Demonalators do not use the methods that ceremonial magician would use, so there is no correlation. Theurgic magic practices are completely different, and there isn't much in the way of books on the subject either. Though the method is rather simple, it isn't commonly used. In any case, there isn't any danger of pissing off the intended spirit/daemon/divinity like there is using the crusty old way of doing things - banishing, for example, would be something a theistic Satanist / Dem would find useless since there is no need to be "protected" from something which you called to earnestly, and respectfully. In many ways, our methods are just simpler...

I agree. Unless by banishing we mean not banishing that entity but for example try to change our mental focus away from the ritual after it's done.

Anyway, I consider myself a Dem in practice since Satan isn't the only person in my pantheon nor the only being that gets my attention - just the most important one. Many Dems view Satan only as an abstract "all" (like pantheists) as well, and I diverge from that greatly so I guess I am kind-of-sort-of-Dem. I just jettison the parts that make no sense to me, based on experience... naturally...

In that way I can consider myself a demonolator as well. I mean, I'm agnostic to whether any kinds of spirits actually exist, but there are a bunch that I sometimes feel drawn to, or talk to or whatever, including a few that are traditionally considered demons. I just don't make a difference between whether they are a demon or a deity or whatever else.

Your points are valid, but I think the difference between Dems and the others of what you speak is basically theurgy.

Theurgy? I suppose you mean theology. Theurgy as a practice is something I suppose both would do as I've encountered the term (rarely) being used both by Satanists and by Pagans in reference to their practice.

When I refer to pagan-y idealism it has nothing to do with their practices, many of which are identical or similar to mine, but in their worldviews which I do not share. Not to hijack the thread with another "what is LHP" discussion, but basically you aren't LHP without the antinomian traits which define the path... You also aren't really LHP in my view if you aren't pursuing that to the point of a full spiritual rebellion as well, it's not simply enough to reject the status quo (that'd just make you a punk, lol..).

How would one rebell against something that one doesn't even belief to exist? I kinda get the gist of what you mean, I however wouldn't express it in terms of spiritual rebellion but in terms of rejecting the metaphysical assumptions of mainstream religions (or at least those that don't make sense to me).

Likewise, I don't really consider Thelema groups LHP because they are using Christianized cermonial mechanisms which _the real_ LHP would reject. Just because someone is at odds in some way with the mainstream religions in practice, doesn't mean they are actively rejecting them --

I would say that pretty much depends on the metaphysics these people believe in.

if you think something like the LBRP isn't abhorrent and call yourself LHP you're pretty much suffering from some sort of cognitive dissonance, and we can't help you.

As I mentioned above, depends on what you mean by banishing. The only thing about that ritual that I really dislike is its use of abrahamic god-names, and I'm also not into its style, but it seems pretty easily re-interpretable.

 

[VioletVortex]

Demonolatry isn't really a religion in itself, rather its a practiced found within a few religions, mostly mostly those of the Left Hand Path variety. It's sort of like magick. I think it would be a good idea to have a subforum specifically for Demonolatry, though it shouldn't be exclusive like an actual sub-DIR as it is a pan-LHP practice.

 

[EtuMalku]

Demonolatry is different from Satanism is the respect that Satan isn't the patron deity of the religion, although they can be categorized as Satanists since Satan is an entity within Demonolatry. It's a loosely organized religion with many members being well over 30 in age. As the name would suggest, is a system based on demon "worship" (although the religion has more emphasis on respect than worship) and every Demonolater(ess) typically chooses a patron demon. It's very polytheistic and takes deities from old Christian grimores and legends, as well as the Geotia and other sources about demons. Many Demonolaters believe that demons became labeled as evil under the influence of Christianity in Europe and the Christian entities were once old gods of Pagan belief systems. So Demonolatry is essentially a "dark" Pagan-like sub-category of Satanic thought, but distinct from Satanism.

Should RF add a Demonolatry sub-forum?

My thoughts are since we have no formal agreement as to what the LHP actually is and is not, then what's the difference if we add another DIR here?

 

[Mindmaster]

Theurgy? I suppose you mean theology. Theurgy as a practice is something I suppose both would do as I've encountered the term (rarely) being used both by Satanists and by Pagans in reference to their practice.

No, theurgy is a type of invocation or "prayer based" type of magic. It's something not available to the unbelievers, basically. The process is to pray to the force or power you wish to invoke and once you have reached them either use their energy through you (as they will) or petition them to accomplish the effect. Ultimately, it is the simplest form of magic in that all it requires is the unerring knowledge that it will work and the awareness that you have reached the intended force. As easy as it is to describe, the modern mindset beguiles nearly all attempts to succeed. If your beliefs must be questioned internally you basically can never build the force necessary to accomplish this. If you doubt the force exists, it doesn't work... If you doubt you can do this in any way, it doesn't work. It is the fastest working method I can use, so once you can do so you will find that you will be using any other method less. The problem is belief of course, and if you haven't got any efforts along this line are wastes of time. In the end, I guess to me this is the major difference between our ritual practices versus the rest of the LHP, and even other Satanists. Theists are usually seeking henosis of sorts with the dark powers they feel affinity for, and what better way to achieve such a thing?

While it seems like something like chaos magick would yield similar results, the intent is different - belief is a tool isn't the same as seeking a union of sorts with the power for mutual gain.

 

[Liu]

No, theurgy is a type of invocation or "prayer based" type of magic. It's something not available to the unbelievers, basically. The process is to pray to the force or power you wish to invoke and once you have reached them either use their energy through you (as they will) or petition them to accomplish the effect. Ultimately, it is the simplest form of magic in that all it requires is the unerring knowledge that it will work and the awareness that you have reached the intended force. As easy as it is to describe, the modern mindset beguiles nearly all attempts to succeed. If your beliefs must be questioned internally you basically can never build the force necessary to accomplish this. If you doubt the force exists, it doesn't work... If you doubt you can do this in any way, it doesn't work. It is the fastest working method I can use, so once you can do so you will find that you will be using any other method less. The problem is belief of course, and if you haven't got any efforts along this line are wastes of time. In the end, I guess to me this is the major difference between our ritual practices versus the rest of the LHP, and even other Satanists. Theists are usually seeking henosis of sorts with the dark powers they feel affinity for, and what better way to achieve such a thing?

While it seems like something like chaos magick would yield similar results, the intent is different - belief is a tool isn't the same as seeking a union of sorts with the power for mutual gain.

Ah, I see - I had taken your previous post to mean that only RHPers, who work with demons in the traditional, forcing, ways, would use theurgy - and that makes no sense

I'm familiar with the term, the definition you gave here is basically the same I read here a while ago: Theurgy

And you are right, that is difficult - I have huge difficulties feeling any kind of spiritual forces. Well, I do feel Satan's presence when I'm praying or similar, but in a way that can be easily explained as being simply caused by my subconscious. And therefore it's not easy at all to just believe.
I kinda can circumvent my skepticism by my certainty that there is something to which at least some of the concepts we relate to Satan apply. I however lack belief that this something is really a being, and not just an impersonal force, a fancy way of describing reality. But as much as I personify it I sometimes can shift my belief in that impersonal something onto my personification of it. It's quite a bit of effort, though.

Therefore I rather resort to other kinds of magick when I wish to get something, and only include the divine into it insofar as I devote my workings to it and as I equate it with my own essence, considering myself a manifestation of it no matter whether I can actually feel it or not.

My thoughts are since we have no formal agreement as to what the LHP actually is and is not, then what's the difference if we add another DIR here?

We seem to be getting along well without a proper definition, though.
And demonolatry at least is much easier to define as the LHP.

 

[EtuMalku]

Ah, I see - I had taken your previous post to mean that only RHPers, who work with demons in the traditional, forcing, ways, would use theurgy - and that makes no sense

I'm familiar with the term, the definition you gave here is basically the same I read here a while ago: Theurgy

And you are right, that is difficult - I have huge difficulties feeling any kind of spiritual forces. Well, I do feel Satan's presence when I'm praying or similar, but in a way that can be easily explained as being simply caused by my subconscious. And therefore it's not easy at all to just believe.
I kinda can circumvent my skepticism by my certainty that there is something to which at least some of the concepts we relate to Satan apply. I however lack belief that this something is really a being, and not just an impersonal force, a fancy way of describing reality. But as much as I personify it I sometimes can shift my belief in that impersonal something onto my personification of it. It's quite a bit of effort, though.

Therefore I rather resort to other kinds of magick when I wish to get something, and only include the divine into it insofar as I devote my workings to it and as I equate it with my own essence, considering myself a manifestation of it no matter whether I can actually feel it or not.


We seem to be getting along well without a proper definition, though.
And demonolatry at least is much easier to define as the LHP.

Complacency is not exactly 'getting along', moving forward however.

Demonaltry is a polytheistic Neo-Pagan religion, which I don't find to be a Western LHP as we recognize no other deity other than our higher Self.

Infernal Dialogues: An Introduction to Modern Demonolatry for Wiccans & Neo-Pagans

 

[Liu]

Complacency is not exactly 'getting along', moving forward however.

Demonaltry is a polytheistic Neo-Pagan religion, which I don't find to be a Western LHP as we recognize no other deity other than our higher Self.

Infernal Dialogues: An Introduction to Modern Demonolatry for Wiccans & Neo-Pagans

That LHPers may have no gods besides themselves is not something I found all to agree on, though, on the contrary. So I see no reason why the Demonolatry DIR, if it should be created, shouldn't be sub-DIR of this one here.

 

[EtuMalku]

That LHPers may have no gods besides themselves is not something I found all to agree on, though, on the contrary. So I see no reason why the Demonolatry DIR, if it should be created, shouldn't be sub-DIR of this one here.

No one agreed on 'anything', and that's the perpetual problem here . . . the LHP is anything anyone wants it to be here, thus it becomes Nothing.