Should the niqab be banned?

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I have worn high heels. They are irritating, yes. But I still think they are a far cry from having your entire body covered in a shapeless cloak, leaving only a tiny slit for your eyes.

Having your entire body covered is not physically harmful, high heels are, they are not simply irritating, wearing a bra is irritating, wearing high heels is very painful. you have to learn how to walk in them to avoid falling over, if you do fall over it is more dangerous then when you are not wearing heels. In the UK some work places considered banning high heels because of the amount of accidents. It also restricts your movement.

I still don't understand why covering your whole body is more worthy of banning, sorry.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Me? No. But I would support businesses/places of employment who felt (for Health & Safety reasons) that they shouldn't be worn by staff members, considering the potential for trip hazards etc.




**This colour = edited text.**

No I wasn't asking you because you never said you would ban the Niqab if you ruled the world

 

[Falvlun]

Having your entire body covered is not physically harmful, high heels are, they are not simply irritating, wearing a bra is irritating, wearing high heels is very painful. you have to learn how to walk in them to avoid falling over, if you do fall over it is more dangerous then when you are not wearing heels. In the UK some work places considered banning high heels because of the amount of accidents. It also restricts your movement.

I still don't understand why covering your whole body is more worthy of banning, sorry.

We may just have to agree to disagree.

Though I think the more relevant portion of my disgust with a niqab is the dehumanizing factor, rather than the physical restriction.

 

[Revoltingest]

Having your entire body covered is not physically harmful, high heels are, they are not simply irritating, wearing a bra is irritating, wearing high heels is very painful. you have to learn how to walk in them to avoid falling over, if you do fall over it is more dangerous then when you are not wearing heels. In the UK some work places considered banning high heels because of the amount of accidents. It also restricts your movement.
I still don't understand why covering your whole body is more worthy of banning, sorry.

From many discussions with women, I find they wear high heals primarily to impress other women.
This isn't oppression, just a choice to place appearance & conformity above comfort.
But the veil is harshly enforced by law in many places. At least in the west, it would generally be voluntary.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

From many discussions with women, they wear high heals primarily to impress other women.
This isn't oppression, just a choice to place appearance & conformity above comfort.
But the veil is harshly enforced by law in many places. At least in the west, it would generally be voluntary.

yes yes women say they want to impress other women, it does not matter, high heels make your legs look longer, feet look smaller, your butt look bigger = more sexy to men!
Yes women make many "choices" to experience pain for beauty and conformity, that is oppression.
the question was would you ban niqab? if you ruled the world you can change the niqab from being enforced to being optional, you do not have to ban it, right?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

We may just have to agree to disagree.

Ok that is fine, I am a woman.

Though I think the more relevant portion of my disgust with a niqab is the dehumanizing factor, rather than the physical restriction.

I think beauty standards for women are dehumanizing, women in general are dehumanized, yes even in the west!!!

 

[Revoltingest]

yes yes women say they want to impress other women, it does not matter, high heels make your legs look longer, feet look smaller, your butt look bigger = more sexy to men!
Yes women make many "choices" to experience pain for beauty and conformity, that is oppression.
the question was would you ban niqab? if you ruled the world you can change the niqab from being enforced to being optional, you do not have to ban it, right?

I answered in detail above.
When one makes a choice without coercion of law or threat, this is not "oppression", but rather a lack of personal responsibility to live as one wants. Consider another nasty piece of clothing, the tie. I gave'm up. Women can give up high heels....if they want.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I answered in detail above.
When one makes a choice without coercion of law or threat, this is not "oppression", but rather a lack of personal responsibility to live as one wants. Consider another nasty piece of clothing, the tie. I gave'm up. Women can give up high heels.

the tie seriously?
I know women can give up heels I did, but I still struggle to accept myself daily. Oppression doesn't have to be physically forced, it can operate in a way were from birth you are socialized to conform according to your gender. women can also give up Niqab if it is not enforced, so why ban it?

 

[Revoltingest]

the tie seriously?
I know women can give up heels I did, but I still struggle to accept myself daily. Oppression doesn't have to be physically forced, it can operate in a way were from birth you are socialized to conform according to your gender. women can also give up Niqab if it is not enforced, so why ban it?

The tie was invented in a weapons lab staffed by Satan, Hitler, Idi Amin, Marquis de Sade & Richard Nixon.
They also came up with the leisure suit, high heels, & shoulder pads on dresses.
As I said earlier, I generally wouldn't ban the veil.
May you fare well in your struggle to resist those terrible shoes.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

The tie was invented in a weapons lab staffed by Satan, Hitler, Idi Amin, Marquis de Sade & Richard Nixon.

LOL!

They also came up with the leisure suit, high heels, & shoulder pads on dresses.

Pure evil!

As I said earlier, I generally wouldn't ban the veil.
May you fare well in your struggle to resist those terrible shoes.

I wasn't accusing you of wanted to ban it, but someone else said they would ban it, which is why I brought up high heels.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I think that it makes no sense to ban the niqab on the grounds of oppression:

"This woman is being oppressed! Let's cut her off from society, her support network, and the means to help her get out of her oppression!"

 

[apophenia]

Yes women make many choices to experience pain for beauty and conformity, that is oppression

No. It is not oppression. Vanity. Narcissism. Susceptibility to peer pressure.Even stupidity. But not oppression.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

No. It is not oppression. Vanity. Narcissism. Susceptibility to peer pressure.Even stupidity. But not oppression.

When you are taught to do it because of your physical sex, when your value is placed more on how you conform to beauty standards, because of your sex, yes it is in my opinion.
it is not narcissism, it is low self esteem.

 

[apophenia]

When you are taught to do it because of your physical sex, when your value is placed more on how you conform to beauty standards, because of your sex, yes it is in my opinion.
it is not narcissism, it is low self esteem.

I don't think you will get far with women who like high heels by telling them that they all lack self esteem. That would mean many, even most, of the most confident and successful women in the world are all lacking self esteem. That'll never fly.

Following up on this - are all the guys with gym-built pecs and abs (which is becoming the norm) also suffering oppression and low self esteem ?

Are they victims of the demands and sexual objectification from women ?

(They may be, I don't know, but what do you think ? )

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I don't think you will get far with women who like high heels by telling them that they all lack self esteem. That would mean many, even most, of the most confident and successful women in the world are all lacking self esteem. That'll never fly.

Following up on this - are all the guys with gym-built pecs and abs (which is becoming the norm) also suffering oppression and low self esteem ?

Are they victims of the demands and sexual objectification from women ?

(They may be, I don't know, but what do you think ? )

At that point I wasn't specifically talking about wearing high heels but beauty standards for women in general, yes it makes you have low self esteem so you feel like you need it and conform. Yes successful women can have low self esteem about what they look like, yes you can be confident in other ways and still have low self esteem about what you look like.
I know a guy who can be very confident but is very afraid of getting old and gets depressed by his age and if he thinks he is looking older, I'm talking about in a more than normal way.
For the recorded I am not trying to be mean and say I am better than these women,I am not! I am the same, I have lived it from birth, I'm just very honest about it.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

P.s and saying they are narcissistic is not mean?!

 

[Debater Slayer]

I do think it is a symbol of oppression, and hope that the cultures which support its use will ultimately adopt less oppressive and dehumanizing ways to express modesty.

If I was ultimate ruler, I would ban it. But then again, if I were ultimate ruler, I doubt that such cultures would flourish which would support and desire its use.

However, as others have noted, in the world in which we live, an outright ban would not be beneficial or desirable. So the best we can do is hope it dies the fashion death it should.

I know women who chose to start wearing niqab despite not being forced to by anyone; if they want, they can stop wearing it at any time. But they still choose to wear it.

In such a case, would you say that the niqab is a sign of oppression?

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I know women who chose to start wearing niqab despite not being forced to by anyone; if they want, they can stop wearing it at any time. But they still choose to wear it.

In such a case, would you say that the niqab is a sign of oppression?

someone told me they met a woman with a Niqab, she never always wore it, she was party girl. She said she felt liberated by the Niqab because people no longer placed her value on how attractive she is. So she felt she had more humanity while wearing it, not less.

I think in general gender roles are oppressive. And it is sad that women feel they have to dress a certain way for their humanity to be recognised or so they will feel respected. I just don't like the hypocrisy that western people have that they feel progressive for wanting to ban things from other cultures, without even addressing how women are made to feel from their own culture.

 

[Revoltingest]

someone told me they met a woman with a Niqab, she never always wore it, she was party girl. She said she felt liberated by the Niqab because people no longer placed her value on how attractive she is. So she felt she had more humanity while wearing it, not less.

Forums like this one are similar to that scenario.
I generally don't know what other posters look like.
Attractiveness is based upon personality.
This is interesting.

 

[Debater Slayer]

someone told me they met a woman with a Niqab, she never always wore it, she was party girl. She said she felt liberated by the Niqab because people no longer placed her value on how attractive she is. So she felt she had more humanity while wearing it, not less.

I think in general gender roles are oppressive. And it is sad that women feel they have to dress a certain way for their humanity to be recognised or so they will feel respected. I just don't like the hypocrisy that western people have that they feel progressive for wanting to ban things from other cultures, without even addressing how women are made to feel from their own culture.

Good points. It seems to me that the concept of tying clothing choices to someone's value as a person is what's oppressive, not any particular dress code in and of itself. Telling women they have to take off niqab against their will and enforcing this via the law is just as oppressive as forcing them to wear it against their choice, in my opinion.