Should Women be Held Accountable for Men's Sexual Feelings?

[Sultan Of Swing]

What do men do when they "stumble", in accordance to your hypothetical?

How do you validate your comparison of waving a beer around in front of a recovering alcoholic to a woman showing skin in front of a man? Are you suggesting men are themselves comparable to recovering alcoholics when it comes to lust?

Many men are, yes, not all. Many Christian men have been transformed by Christ to overcome lust and pornography and many are still recovering from such addictions, in the same way one is addicted to alcohol many men suffer similar addictions in the lust category.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Many men are, yes, not all. Many Christian men have been transformed by Christ to overcome lust and pornography and many are still recovering from such addictions, in the same way one is addicted to alcohol many men suffer similar addictions in the lust category.

I disagree with your assessment about men in general. I think such a generalization assumes that men are little more than out of control perverts who can't handle the visuals of a woman. I attribute the expectation of lacking control more so on cultural conditioning that also includes an entitlement mentality rather than a biological trait.

Can Christian men handle a visual of a woman better if he is transformed through Christ, as you claim?

 

[savagewind]

Might it be possible that Bible warnings about proper dress are for the ones who dress? In other words if I dress for attention it is attention I am about. If I dress modestly I can go about my own business forgetting what I look like to other people. Immodest dress means too much consideration about one's own appearance. Modest dress means simply to dress well and forget it. It might not be about what other people think but about what the dresser thinks of herself or himself. Does this make sense?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

What do you think constitutes "immodest dress"?

Good question. Modest dressing is one that does not overtly attract a person's attention to the body, one that is not form-hugging, like leggings, or too revealing. Honestly it is not explicitly specified in the Scriptures but a woman out of good conscience in the Holy Spirit, seeking God's glory and for all people to serve God and not stumble should be aware of what to wear that will not draw unwanted attention.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Good question. Modest dressing is one that does not overtly attract a person's attention to the body, one that is not form-hugging, like leggings, or too revealing. Honestly it is not explicitly specified in the Scriptures but a woman out of good conscience in the Holy Spirit, seeking God's glory and for all people to serve God and not stumble should be aware of what to wear that will not draw unwanted attention.

Just out of curiosity, would Christian women ever consider performing on stage in the ballet? Or would that in your opinion be contrary to modest dress because of the traditional tutu with form fitting bodice, bare back, high skirt, and sheer tights worn on stage?

 

[savagewind]

What is utterly amazing to me is that people with seeming very good motive seem to be saying that dressing the wrong way can stumble other like minded people but it is surely OK to teach lies about what is written, those don't stumble people. It is lies that stumble people. Not clothes for goodness sakes.

I am stumbled because I can see your knees. No!

I am really stumbled because I am suppose to believe your lies.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

I disagree with your assessment about men in general. I think such a generalization assumes that men are little more than out of control perverts who can't handle the visuals of a woman. I attribute the expectation of lacking control more so on cultural conditioning that also includes an entitlement mentality rather than a biological trait.

Not out of control, but easily able to stumble. There are real hormonal and biological differences between the sexes, androgen production, testosterone, etc., I don't think these can be easily dismissed when comparing lust.

Can Christian men handle a visual of a woman better if he is transformed through Christ, as you claim?

Christians are at different stages in their sanctification. The Holy Spirit empowers men to conquer but still many fall, it is a process.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Just out of curiosity, would Christian women ever consider performing on stage in the ballet? Or would that in your opinion be contrary to modest dress because of the traditional tutu with form fitting bodice, bare back, high skirt, and sheer tights worn on stage?

In ballet one can appreciate the human form and the beauty of God's design, and see His glory in His creation, I would see this as an exception, it is not intended to elicit sexual attention. If fellow Christians have problems with lustful thoughts from ballet then they probably just shouldn't go watch ballet...

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Not out of control, but easily able to stumble. There are real hormonal and biological differences between the sexes, androgen production, testosterone, etc., I don't think these can be easily dismissed when comparing lust.

Ah, the hormone argument.

Are you able to clarify what you mean by "stumble"? What do stumbling lustful men do exactly that is to be avoided?

Christians are at different stages in their sanctification. The Holy Spirit empowers men to conquer but still many fall, it is a process.

Is it reasonable to ask at what stage a Christian man can handle seeing a scantily clad woman without stumbling? So to speak?

 

[savagewind]

In ballet one can appreciate the human form and the beauty of God's design, and see His glory in His creation, I would see this as an exception, it is not intended to elicit sexual attention. If fellow Christians have problems with lustful thoughts from ballet then they probably just shouldn't go watch ballet...

But your stand is immodest dress elicits sexual desire so a woman should dress for the weak men. Tell us in the Bible where council about a women's dress is linked to weak men's sexual desire please.

 

[savagewind]

A woman in exercise clothes does not dress that way to provoke sexual desire like a ballet dancer does not dress to provoke desire. Exercise clothes are for comfort and safety.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

Ah, the hormone argument.

What's wrong with it?

Are you able to clarify what you mean by "stumble"? What do stumbling lustful men do exactly that is to be avoided?

Having lustful thoughts, ones that they dwell on.

Is it reasonable to ask at what stage a Christian man can handle seeing a scantily clad woman without stumbling? So to speak?

There aren't discrete stages such as that, it's a process for all Christian men and they have different sins they may deal with.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

But your stand is immodest dress elicits sexual desire so a woman should dress for the weak men. Tell us in the Bible where council about a women's dress is linked to weak men's sexual desire please.

There usually isn't explicit justification given in the actual verse or following verse itself, it's more of a straight command.

Paul's words on not doing things to cause other believers to stumble is very relevant here though and I believe can be used as one reason for that, or taken on their own.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

In ballet one can appreciate the human form and the beauty of God's design, and see His glory in His creation, I would see this as an exception, it is not intended to elicit sexual attention. If fellow Christians have problems with lustful thoughts from ballet then they probably just shouldn't go watch ballet...

Okay, these are helpful discussions. Thanks. Nuances and exceptions give a broader view rather than the strict duality of yes/no or modest/immodest.

Plus, I can better relate to my critics who accuse me of wanting my students to look like whores.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

A woman in exercise clothes does not dress that way to provoke sexual desire like a ballet dancer does not dress to provoke desire. Exercise clothes are for comfort and safety.

How are tracksuit bottoms not safe?

 

[savagewind]

There usually isn't explicit justification given in the actual verse or following verse itself, it's more of a straight command.

Paul's words on not doing things to cause other believers to stumble is very relevant here though and I believe can be used as one reason for that, or taken on their own.

What do you think of my opinion Paul's council is for the righteousness of the women and not the righteousness of the weak men? Did you read it?

Should i say it again?

 

[savagewind]

How are tracksuit bottoms not safe?

I don't know. Do they flair at the bottoms?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Good question. Modest dressing is one that does not overtly attract a person's attention to the body, one that is not form-hugging, like leggings, or too revealing. Honestly it is not explicitly specified in the Scriptures but a woman out of good conscience in the Holy Spirit, seeking God's glory and for all people to serve God and not stumble should be aware of what to wear that will not draw unwanted attention.

In other words, the Bible leaves the door open to men to decide what clothing draws their attention to women's bodies, thereby giving them control over how women should dress to accommodate men's inability not to "stumble"?

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

What do you think of my opinion Paul's council is for the righteousness of the women and not the righteousness of the weak men? Did you read it?

I think that what you said is also true, we shouldn't be so preoccupied with getting attention. However, what other Christians think does matter, as Paul does tell us to not cause others to stumble.

 

[savagewind]

I think tight bottoms are a good lesson for others not to stare. I think learning not to stare is a good lesson.