Signs for our times

[TransmutingSoul]

There are thousands of groups of all other faiths and secular groups doing tons of things to improve the conditions on this planet. I know of no faith that doesn't have a social work aspect to it. In my city, Catholic Social Services, several housing groups, the Food bank, and hundreds of other charities contribute to it on a daily basis. All a person has to do for any country is google 'List of charities'. As far as I know, the very small Baha'i group here cleans up a 2 mile portion of a highway, and have a sign to show for it. They are the epitome of 'all talk, no action'.

Most other groups don't advertise their work, they just do it. The advertising they do do comes during an annual fundraising campaign.

I would personally thank them all for doing their bit for humanity.

At the same time, to extend this good will onto to a global scale needs a global joint effort, free of all predudices.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

It is indeed debatable and something we’ve discussed at length. However it isn’t just the Baha’is who will refer to 5 million but scholars of religion too.

Those scholars just quote exaggerated Baha'i sources, as that's all they have. Fortunately, independent investigators have other ways to estimate such things, such as country censuses, and google maps.

I'm just back into this for a moment as I saw that a few new people were asking questions, and only getting the Baha'is responding, not any alternatives. I'll be out again soon, so don't concern yourself.

 

[Vinayaka]

I would personally thank them all for doing their bit for humanity.

At the same time, to extend this good will onto to a global scale needs a global joint effort, free of all predudices.

Regards Tony

Indeed. Setting up 'us versus them', or 'we're better than you, because we're newer,' never helps. Prejudices are slowly being eliminated, including prejudices against gays, which Bahai's work on maintaining, not eliminating.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Indeed. Setting up 'us versus them', or 'we're better than you, because we're newer,' never helps. Prejudices are slowly being eliminated, including prejudices against gays.

Personally I see the challenge is within our own selves and our vision in this time has to become global.

When we take the step to pursue a unity of effort, on a global scale, I see our mindset also changes.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Those scholars just quote exaggerated Baha'i sources, as that's all they have. Fortunately, independent investigators have other ways to estimate such things, such as country censuses, and google maps.

I'm just back into this for a moment as I saw that a few new people were asking questions, and only getting the Baha'is responding, not any alternatives. I'll be out again soon, so don't concern yourself.

No, it is great, this fits perfectly with the OP. There is absolutly no concern about you posting here, in fact I welcome the input.

The fact that many see the Message of Baha'u'llah is of no consequence, is exactly what this OP is about.

Regards Tony

Baha'u'llah has said this will happen

 

[Dawnofhope]

Those scholars just quote exaggerated Baha'i sources, as that's all they have. Fortunately, independent investigators have other ways to estimate such things, such as country censuses, and google maps.

I'm just back into this for a moment as I saw that a few new people were asking questions, and only getting the Baha'is responding, not any alternatives. I'll be out again soon, so don't concern yourself.

As we’ve discussed before, some countries have reliable censuses that address the question of religious affiliation well. In those countries there isn’t a huge discrepancy between Baha’i rolls and the census. The Indian census is somewhat of an outlier and I would presume that Baha’is who have come from Hindu cultures still consider themselves Hindus.

This is an open debate thread so you are welcome to debate and criticise along with everyone else. Its something you have been doing for nearly four years on this forum so I’m not expecting anything to change anytime soon.

 

[Vinayaka]

Personally I see the challenge is within our own selves and our vision in this time has to become global.

When we take the step to pursue a unity of effort, on a global scale, I see our mindset also changes.

Regards Tony

We? I've always been very much a global thinker. But yes there are still 'tribes' out there still, Baha'i being one of them. There is a 'help our kind but not others' mentality in tribalism.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We? I've always been very much a global thinker. But yes there are still 'tribes' out there still, Baha'i being one of them. There is a 'help our kind but not others' mentality in tribalism.

Luckily, the Message of Muhammad was for that very purpose, that Message showed us how waring bloodthirsty tribes can become a strong united Nation.

Now the Nations must agree to a Universal effort.

What will be the guiding principles that assist that effort?

For me, those principles will be drawn from the Message of Baha'u'llah, which to me is also the Message given by all past founders of the world's greatest Faiths.

Thus to me, global consciousness enshrines the required wide embrace.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

Luckily, the Message of Muhammad was for that very purpose, that Message showed us how waring bloodthirsty tribes can become a strong united Nation.

Now the Nations must agree to a Universal effort.

What will be the guiding principles that assist that effort?

For me, those principles will be drawn from the Message of Baha'u'llah, which to me is also the Message given by all past founders of the world's greatest Faiths.

Thus to me, global consciousness enshrines the required wide embrace.

Regards Tony

And that would have to include Baha'is getting involved with other folks. When I go and read Baha'i local websites about their activities, it's always just exclusively Bahai ... prayer groups, leadership classes, children's classes, Ruhi, and all that. There is never anything about community feeding or any outreach into the broader community. Of course individuals might do stuff, but that's true for people of any faith.

I don't see how a group that acts very tribally itself can be taken seriously about global consciousness. Instead of speaking about Baha'i persecution, why not speak about ALL persecution? So with all due respect, it's not about thinking globally at all, it's about thinking Baha'i and only Baha'i. It's not true for all, of course. One Baha'i member here has indeed started a few interesting threads that weren't just about Baha'i. That was refreshing.

I had hopes for this thread, when I read the title. But then I read the first sentence. There are many people on RF who don't wear their religion on their sleeves, an indicator of thinking globally, not just tribally.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

And that would have to include Baha'is getting involved with other folks. When I go and read Baha'i local websites about their activities, it's always just exclusively Bahai ... prayer groups, leadership classes, children's classes, Ruhi, and all that. There is never anything about community feeding or any outreach into the broader community. Of course individuals might do stuff, but that's true for people of any faith.

I don't see how a group that acts very tribally itself can be taken seriously about global consciousness. Instead of speaking about Baha'i persecution, why not speak about ALL persecution? So with all due respect, it's not about thinking globally at all, it's about thinking Baha'i and only Baha'i. It's not true for all, of course. One Baha'i member here has indeed started a few interesting threads that weren't just about Baha'i. That was refreshing.

I had hopes for this thread, when I read the title. But then I read the first sentence. There are many people on RF who don't wear their religion on their sleeves, an indicator of thinking globally, not just tribally.

That is the great thing Vinayaka, one can choose their own path, there is no compulsion in religion. I would like to offer when we talk about persecution we talk about all persecution. The Baha'i is an example that many face in Iran and in other places around the world and we are aware of those stories.

What is offered in those classes you talk about is a return to the core values that build a strong community. A Baha'i will also be involved in other activities aimed at achieving unity, it would be a motivation and time factor for all involved. I know in a community near me, one of the best children class teachers and youth motivators is not and has not become a Baha'i, even though they teach the material. I did offer it here with the local Pastor and also offered if he wishes, to keep it contained to the name of Jesus. He has yet been able to cross the line of that name to the spirit that it evokes.

I have no idea how the world will embrace our oneness, given the diversity here just on RF, it is obvious it will take a power beyond the mind of man. All I have to cling to in faith is what I see is the answer. It has been offered that; "The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established." and that "This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded."

Thus the quandary to me and to all. Do I remain silent when all I want for others is peace and well being, or do I raise my voice oblivious of how it will make me look, or what comments it will attract in return?

I see the future is unfolding as per a vision recorded and in what I have read since the early 1980's. Uncannily so. All I can do is offer to you, that no matter what you have no enemy in me. I offer there will be a time when you see that has become a worldwide choice.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

That is the great thing Vinayaka, one can choose their own path, there is no compulsion in religion. I would like to offer when we talk about persecution we talk about all persecution. The Baha'i is an example that many face in Iran and in other places around the world and we are aware of those stories.

What is offered in those classes you talk about is a return to the core values that build a strong community. A Baha'i will also be involved in other activities aimed at achieving unity, it would be a motivation and time factor for all involved. I know in a community near me, one of the best children class teachers and youth motivators is not and has not become a Baha'i, even though they teach the material. I did offer it here with the local Pastor and also offered if he wishes, to keep it contained to the name of Jesus. He has yet been able to cross the line of that name to the spirit that it evokes.

I have no idea how the world will embrace our oneness, given the diversity here just on RF, it is obvious it will take a power beyond the mind of man. All I have to cling to in faith is what I see is the answer. It has been offered that; "The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established." and that "This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded."

Thus the quandary to me and to all. Do I remain silent when all I want for others is peace and well being, or do I raise my voice oblivious of how it will make me look, or what comments it will attract in return?

I see the future is unfolding as per a vision recorded and in what I have read since the early 1980's. Uncannily so. All I can do is offer to you, that no matter what you have no enemy in me. I offer there will be a time when you see that has become a worldwide choice.

Regards Tony

Tony, I've always agreed with all the Baha'i ideals for this planet, at least in the words. (Actions are another matter.) That part has never been in question. What I've questioned is the idea that the Baha'i faith alone is the only answer to those challenges. Thinking globally with words, while remaining tribal in action, doesn't work. Just as Christians believe the world needs Jesus for salvation, Baha'is believe the world needs Baha'u'llah.

I think the pastor has good reasons to not let a Baha'i teach ethics, as he probably knows the name of Baha'u'llah would inevitably come up. How could it not? If he's done his research he has every right to be suspicious. There would tims when students and teacher would feel uncomfortable.

But I will be out now. My job is done here for now. I'll leave it to the several newcomers. Best wishes.

 

[loverofhumanity]

Hey, how are you doing. You know I live between San Francisco and Sacramento and I never hear anything about the Baha'i Faith. So like in your city, what has been going on for the last few years? What teaching projects have you guys done? How many firesides and other outreaches are going on to teach people about the Faith? In these last few years how many seekers have there been in your city? How many have become Baha'is? How many are active in the community? Oh, and in fact, how Baha'is are there in your city and approximately, how many are active. Thanks,

Hi CG,

I’m always glad to hear a friendly voice or words in this case. I’ve sort of been out of action on RF due to University and more so an eye operation. My wife and I had our cataracts removed and new ones put in. Now I know what 4k tv looks like. In the hospital I saw a lady that I thought might be my wife but wasn’t sure. I was about to go and give her a big hug and kiss. I didn’t though. So I asked the nurse “where’s my wife’ and she replied ‘ it’s that lady across from me”. Just as well because I wouldn’t want to be going around kissing strange women!

My wife and I are the only Baha’is in our tiny town but the teachings have influenced every city, hamlet and village whether Baha’is live there or not. The Faith is a means to an end - to be a catalyst in helping create a happier and just society. So to me it’s not about the number of Baha’is or activities but whether there is a good friendly spirit in the community between the various cultures, races and religions. So we try and just be accepting of all. Number is not necessarily representative of positive influence.

Just two active Baha’is can be the equivalent in activity of 50 of another community as we have duties individually, to that a priest would have in their congregation. So we visit and befriend different religions here by attending their services and functions, sit on the multi cultural committee as members, have our own Facebook site and also attend zoom meetings and have contact with the Mayor and government representatives. We study Ruhi institute books and I’m doing a course at uni on Counselling to hopefully be of better service to the community.

It’s all about humanity and how we can help get it to a better place, where things like poverty, war, hatred and prejudice are done away with, to be replaced with trust and universal co operation and maybe brotherhood. It’s up to each of us to try the best we can so that all can live in comfort and happiness not just the few.

Baha’is will never achieve this alone. The more people work for the betterment of humanity, the better things will become. There are billions of religious people in the world today but where is world peace and unity between the religions. So numbers here mean very little. Whereas, I believe, the teachings of Baha’u’llah are extremely potent bringing about things like multi cultural, interfaith and tearing down age old barriers between races, religions and nations which will continue until we are one.

A true medicine heals ills, whereas a thousand or a billion placebos do nothing, so it’s the effectiveness of the remedy, not the amount that gives true healing. And I believe that Baha’u’llah has not only properly diagnosed our illnesses, but has also prescribed the right medicine.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What I've questioned is the idea that the Baha'i faith alone is the only answer to those challenges.

What I see I have not been able to impart, is that I see all the good a Baha'i can do, is also just as possible for people of all other faiths as well.

That boils down to my faith, that all the good we can do, is from a source that is the potential in all of us.

But I will be out now. My job is done here for now. I'll leave it to the several newcomers. Best wishes.

All the best Vinayaka, thanks for participating.

Regards Tony

 

[Ancient Soul]

The purpose of this OP in a debate section is to allow for alternate input, at the same time offer what I see is unfolding in the world as per a Baha'i veiwpoint. (This is not official Baha'i viewpoint but a personal understanding of my observations)

In the early 1990's Abdul'baha gave a future vision of how the Baha'i Faith would unfold. There is foreseen a time where the Faith will face fierce opposition, to which I see is yet to happen. This is in part what was offered;

"..... Ere long shall the clamor of the multitude throughout Africa, throughout America, the cry of the European and of the Turk, the groaning of India and China, be heard from far and near..."

I watch the news this morning and see what is happening as a result of Covid-19 and wonder if the time may be soon that is reflected in that passge. The above passage then continues,

".... One and all, they shall arise with all their power to resist His Cause.... "

So is it the dawn of that time? is RF reflection how people now see the Message given by Baha'u'llah?

It is the passage offered before that sets the scene,

“How great, how very great is the Cause! How very fierce the onslaught of all the peoples and kindreds of the earth."

I have always wondered if that passage unfolds by humanity practicing their own will, rather than what God has will has ordained. I also am amazed of how it unfolds when we read the closing passage of that quote.

"Stupendous as is the struggle which His words foreshadow, they also testify to the complete victory which the upholders of the Greatest Name are destined eventually to achieve. Peoples, nations, adherents of divers faiths, will jointly and successively arise to shatter its unity, to sap its force, and to degrade its holy name. They will assail not only the spirit which it inculcates, but the administration which is the channel, the instrument, the embodiment of that spirit. For as the authority with which Bahá’u’lláh has invested the future Bahá’í Commonwealth becomes more and more apparent, the fiercer shall be the challenge which from every quarter will be thrown at the verities it enshrines.."

So if you are a person of Faith or no Faith, these predictions will be relavant to you, if you see the Baha'i Faith is showing that it has many answers that others are not offering.

There can be 3 positions. For, on the fence and against!

To me the against voice is yet to be heard to the extent I see may be required.

The full quote;
Bahá'í Reference Library - The World Order of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 17-18

Geez...

You STILL peddling all this bombastic Baha'u'llah "foretelling"?

The quotes you presented, are as always, so vague that it could mean lots of things during lots of time periods in human history. So typical of cult leader wannabes.

What about you? What do you see unfolding in the near future?

Be safe, be happy Regards Tony

Ok, I'll give it the vague bombastic Bahá’u’lláh try at foretelling:

Soon a coldness will sweep across America and the trees will be barren of their leaves. Many of the lands creatures will go into hiding and fall into a deep sleep. They will not be seen again until the land becomes warm again after a season. And BEHOLD! There will be brought many deaths, and sufferings, and anguish sometime, someday, mark the hour for it to happen! I have foretold this on this very day!

 

[Ancient Soul]

Don't really see the Bahá’í community as much of a force for anything. Other than here on RF I never hear anything about them.

Just not much of a player in the shaping of our future.

And in my opinion it never will be unless the Baha'is come out from hiding in their own groups and spread the word.

What good are good principles if nobody knows about them?

I've been trying to get something, anything, of spiritual merit from these Baha'i spokespeople, but all I've gotten so far is an endless game of all kinds of avoidance.

So I'll have to agree with Nakosis on this one.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Geez...

You STILL peddling all this bombastic Baha'u'llah "foretelling"?

The quotes you presented, are as always, so vague that it could mean lots of things during lots of time periods in human history. So typical of cult leader wannabes.



Ok, I'll give it the vague bombastic Bahá’u’lláh try at foretelling:

Soon a coldness will sweep across America and the trees will be barren of their leaves. Many of the lands creatures will go into hiding and fall into a deep sleep. They will not be seen again until the land becomes warm again after a season. And BEHOLD! There will be brought many deaths, and sufferings, and anguish sometime, someday, mark the hour for it to happen! I have foretold this on this very day!

I am afraid you do not know what the implications are, of making such statements.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

I am afraid you do not know what the implications are, of making such statements.

Regards Tony

Some people just can't take the competition.

 

[Clara Tea]

Prophecies and psychic visions of the end times (end of all life on earth) are rife in all religions.

CHRISTIAN:

The Christian religion (in Revelation) says that there will be two demons will rise and escape from what the bible describes as the "smokey" depths of the bottomless pit of hell, then inhabit human bodies (as souls do....they don't just act as ghosts....even Christ inhabited the human known as Jesus...but Christ was good, and these two demons are foul demons from hell). Those two demons are called the dragon, and his son (born of his mouth) is the beast. These two demons each attacked Iraq, according to the bible (notice the past tense, because it already happened). According to Revelation, the Whore of Babylon will conquer Iraq, and because they are in charge, Iraq will be corrupted by them (burkas removed, women raped by soldiers and women not able to contact the soldiers because the military won't allow contact, and elections altered to make sure that only pro-Whore candidates can be elected. But who, or what, is the Whore of Babylon? Revelation 17:18 answers that question. The woman that you saw (who attacked and corrupted Iraq) was that great nation that was more powerful than any other nation. So, Revelation 17:18 says that the most powerful nation in the world attacked Iraq twice under two different presidents who were father and son. The bible says that the Whore of Babylon is a nation known for sexual misconduct and excessive jewelry (such as pearl necklaces--pearls are specifically mentioned). Both presidents who attacked Iraq were born in the Chinese year of the dragon, so they are dragon presidents (the calendar repeats every 12 years).

MAYAN:

Mayans descend from Olmecs and share their intricate calendar. Mayans have recorded all of their history on steps of a pyramid, including history as it is predicted to unfold, then, at the end, all life will be killed (just as the prediction in Revelation said) by a winged dragon. Mayans have a God (Kukulkan) who is a flying dragon God, and looks just like a Chinese Dragon that is thought to end the world.

AZTEC:

Oddly, ancient Aztec artifacts include elephants (some are very very good likenesses of elephants). Since mammoths and mastadons have been extinct (many years before the Aztec culture), one wonders how they saw elephants. Perhaps the answer is chinese bronze age settlements (roughly 1,000 years ago) in Alaska that recently turned up a piece of bronze buckle, which was determined to have been made in China. (Source: University of Colorado, Boulder, "Ancient Bronze Artifact From East Asia Unearthed At Alaska Archaeology Site)." Apparently, it is possible that Chinese sailors, perhaps from the dynasty of the Chinese emperor Kublai Khan (Setsen Khan Kublai, Emperor Shizu of Yuan)? Could the Mayan God Kukulkan be the same as emperor Kublai Khan? The Aztec also believe that a dragon will destroy the world.

CHINESE:

The Chinese have a myth of a dragon destroying the world. Could it be the Chinese myth repeated in the Mayan and Aztec cultures, and not separate myths by distant cultures?

MESOPOTAMIAN:

According to an article, Fall 2014, from the University of Hawaii, Hilo, "The End Of Days: Tales of Apocalypse Across Time And Space," the Mesopotamians and Greeks also had end time myths.

Books (they seem to misinterpret the bible):

"Understanding End Times Prophecy" by Paul N. Benware

"End Times Bible Prophecy" by Brian Godawa

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Boy, that was a beauty.

What an one offer to that? Brian Godawa to me, does not have a vision of the future.

But that is me.

Regards Tony

 

[PAUL MARKHAM]

I am afraid you do not know what the implications are, of making such statements.

Regards Tony

Do you think his prediction is close to the truth?

I think it relates to the whole world. It's called climate change and has happened many time before. The problem this time is the overpopulation and the exploitation of all resources. It could take a few 100 years or a few 1,000. The start is in plain sight.