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Signs of superior eloquence in the Sunnah (the other miracle in Islam)

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

God's recitation and words are superior to his creation, but his exalted chosen ones' words though not on par with God's, are also superior to those not chosen.

The only thing with God's words in Quran, you can always see them in a chapter, and the chapter with respect to whole Quran.

It's harder to contextualize the words of Ahlulbayt (a) with respect to their words in general or the Quran. However, with this holistic approach, their words to become a miracle.

There is also a similar logic that applies to the words of Ahlulbayt (a) as a proof for Quran, it says "And it is not the words of the devils. It doesn't befit them nor are they capable. Indeed they are from the hearing far removed."

Now words attributed to Ahlulbayt (a) have fabrications from falsehood. But with the eye that pierces through the falsehood and sees truth, the words of light and guidance of Ahlubayt (a) become also recognized as something devils and liars can't fabricate as "they are from the hearing far removed".

There's also the famous Persian originated saying "The proof is in the pudding/eating".

We will be looking at words of Ahlulbayt (a) in this thread and seeing their superior nature and eloquence.
 

AlexanderG

Active Member
Out of curiosity, by what standard is one text's eloquence determined to be "superior" to another text? What are the objective criteria? On a related note, by what standard can you determine that a god wrote a text, versus a human? What are the criteria to look for?

Or is it just confirmation bias and wishful thinking? Because I assure you, this kind of argument looks like a joke from the perspective of everyone who isn't already a fervent Muslim. Certainly, what it says about women and non-Muslims looks backward and primitive to me. Not eloquent.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Out of curiosity, by what standard is one text's eloquence determined to be "superior" to another text? What are the objective criteria? On a related note, by what standard can you determine that a god wrote a text, versus a human? What are the criteria to look for?

Or is it just confirmation bias and wishful thinking? Because I assure you, this kind of argument looks like a joke from the perspective of everyone who isn't already a fervent Muslim. Certainly, what it says about women and non-Muslims looks backward and primitive to me. Not eloquent.

Salam

We discussed this topic in this thread: The Quran as a miracle - is it a legitimate challenge? | Religious Forums

We can rediscuss it if you want (eloquence and something being a miracle in terms of eloquence).
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Certainly, what it says about women and non-Muslims looks backward and primitive to me. Not eloquent.

By non-Muslims, you probably mean those who Quran deems turning away from guidance of God. I have not really made a thread about this issue, why is Quran so harsh with disbelievers. I will make a thread and tag you when I do.
 

danieldemol

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

We discussed this topic in this thread: The Quran as a miracle - is it a legitimate challenge? | Religious Forums

We can rediscuss it if you want (eloquence and something being a miracle in terms of eloquence).
You were thoroughly refuted in the thread you linked by @TagliatelliMonster , myself and others.

I recommend people read that thread for an illuminating discussion. No need for a rehash of all the ad-hominem thrown about by the defeated so soon.

In my opinion.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

I got to get this thread going. Apologies for laziness in that regard.

I will write something soon about the sermon of Imam Ali (a) I linked to.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam
Sermon 192: Praise be to Allah who wears the apparel of Honour and Dignity… | Nahjul Balagha Part 1, The Sermons | Al-Islam.org

We see this sermon talks about the wisdom of trying us with acts of humility, but also with a world of trials. The sermon starts from the first arrogant creature to disobey God and goes on to show how he has spread his disease.

He relates to the trials Messengers face as well, that God could've made them invulnerable and that everyone accepts them as a result.

One of the most important words in it is showing why try us with this trial of humbleness vs arrogance:

When Musa son of ‘Imran went to Pharaoh along with his brother Harun (Aaron) wearing (coarse) shirts of wool and holding sticks in their hands, they guaranteed him retention of his country and continuity of his honour if he submitted; but he said: "Do you not wonder at these two men guaranteeing me the continuity of my honour and the retention of my country although you see their poverty and lowliness. Otherwise, why do they not have gold bangles on their wrists?" He said so feeling proud of his gold and collected possessions, and considering wool and its cloth as nothing.

وَلَقَدْ دَخَلَ مُوسَى بْنُ عِمْرَانَ وَمَعَهُ أَخُوهُ هَارُونُ(عليهما السلام) عَلَى فِرْعَوْنَ، وَعَلَيْهِمَا مَدَارِعُ الصُّوفِ، وَبِأَيْدِيهِمَا الْعِصِيُّ، فَشَرَطَا لَهُ ـ إِنْ أَسْلَمَ ـ بَقَاءَ مُلْكِهِ، وَدَوامَ عِزِّهِ، فَقَالَ: أَلاَ تَعْجبُونَ مِنْ هذَيْنِ يَشْرِطَانِ لِي دَوَامَ الْعِزِّ، وَبَقَاءَ الْمُلْكِ، وَهُمَا بِمَا تَرَوْنَ مِنْ حَالِ الْفَقْرِ وَالذُّلِّ، فَهَلاَّ أُلْقِيَ عَلَيْهِمَا أَسَاوِرَةٌ مِنْ ذَهَب؟ إِعْظَاماً لِلذَّهَبِ وَجَمْعِهِ، وَاحْتِقَاراً لِلصُّوفِ وَلُبْسِهِ!

When Allah, the Glorified, deputed His prophets, if He had wished to open for them treasures and mines of gold and (surround them with) planted gardens and to collect around them birds of the skies and beasts of the earth, He could have done so. If He had done so then there would have been no trial, nor recompense and no tidings (about the affairs of the next world).

Those who accepted (His message) could not be given the recompense falling due after trial and the believers could not deserve the reward for good acts, and all these words 2 would not have retained their meanings. But Allah, the Glorified, makes His Prophets firm in their determination and gives them weakness of appearance as seen from the eyes, along with contentment that fills the hearts and eyes resulting from care-freeness, and with want that pains the eyes and ears.

وَلَوْ أَرَادَ اللهُ سُبْحَانَهُ بأَنْبِيَائِهِ حَيْثُ بَعَثَهُمْ أَنْ يَفْتَحَ لَهُمْ كُنُوزَ الْذِّهْبَانِ، وَمَعَادِنَ الْعِقْيَانِ، وَمَغَارِسَ الْجِنَانِ، وَأَنْ يَحْشُرَ مَعَهُمْ طَيْرَ السَّماءِ وَوُحُوشَ الاْرَضِينَ لَفَعَلَ، وَلَوْ فَعَلَ لَسَقَطَ الْبَلاَءُ، وَبَطَلَ الْجَزَاءُ، وَاضْمَحَلَّتِ الاْنْبَاءُ، وَلَمَا وَجَبَ لِلْقَابِلِينَ أُجُورُ الْمُبْتَلِينَ، وَلاَ اسْتَحَقَّ الْمُؤمِنُونَ ثَوَابَ الْـمُحْسِنِينَ، وَلاَ لَزِمَتِ الاْسْمَاءُ مَعَانِيَهَا، وَلكِنَّ اللهَ سُبْحَانَهُ جَعَلَ رُسُلَهُ أُولِي قُوَّة فِي عَزَائِمِهِمْ، وَضَعَفَةً فِيَما تَرَى الاْعْيُنُ مِنْ حَالاَتِهِمْ، مَعَ قَنَاعَة تَمْلاُ الْقُلُوبَ وَالْعُيُونَ غِنىً، وَخَصَاصَة تَمْلاَ الاْبْصَارَ وَالاْسْمَاعَ أَذىً.

If the prophets possessed authority that could not be assaulted, or honour that could not be damaged or domain towards which the necks of people would turn and the saddles of mounts could be set, it would have been very easy for people to seek lessons and quite difficult to feel vanity.

They would have then accepted belief out of fear felt by them or inclination attracting them, and the intention of them all would have been the same, although their actions would have been different. Therefore, Allah, the Glorified decided that people should follow His prophets, acknowledge His books, remain humble before His face, obey His command and accept His obedience with sincerity in which there should not be an iota of anything else; and as the trial and tribulation would be stiffer the reward and recompense too should be larger.

وَلَوْ كَانَتِ الاْنْبِيَاءُ أَهْلَ قُوَّة لاَ تُرَامُ، وَعِزَّة لاَ تُضَامُ، وَمُلْك تُمَدُّ نُحْوَهُ أَعْنَاقُ الرِّجَالِ، وَتُشَدُّ إِلَيْهِ عُقَدُ الرِّحَالِ، لَكَانَ ذلِكَ أَهْوَنَ عَلَى الْخَلْقِ فِي الاْعَتِبَارِ، وَأَبْعَدَ لَهُمْ مِنَ الاْسْتَكْبَارِ، وَلامَنُوا عَنْ رَهْبَة قَاهِرَة لَهْمْ، أَوْ رَغْبَة مَائِلَة بِهِمْ، فَكَانَتِ النِّيَّاتُ مُشْتَرَكَةً، وَالْحَسَنَاتُ مُقْتَسَمَةً. وَلكِنَّ اللهَ سْبْحَانَهُ أَرَادَ أَنْ يَكُونَ الاْتِّبَاعُ لِرُسُلِهِ، وَالْتَّصْدِيقُ بِكُتُبِهِ، وَالْخُشُوعُ لِوَجْهِهِ، وَالاْسْتِكَانَةُ لاِمْرِهِ، وَالاْسْتِسْلاَمُ لِطَاعَتِهِ، أُمُوراً لَهُ خَاصَّةً، لاَ تَشُوبُهَا مِنْ غَيْرِهَا شَائِبَةٌ، وَكُلَّمَا كَانَتِ الْبلْوَى وَالاْخْتِبَارُ أَعْظَمَ كَانَتِ الْمَثُوبَةُ وَالْجَزَاءُ أَجْزَلَ.



Imam Ali (a) also shows the wisdom of Islamic devotional acts to God in that regard:

This is the thing against which Allah has protected His creatures who are believers by means of prayers, and alms-giving, and suffering the hardship of fasting in the days in which it has been made obligatory, in order to give their limbs peacefulness, to cast fear in their eyes, to make their spirits humble, to give their hearts humility and to remove haughtiness from them.

All this is achieved through the covering of their delicate cheeks with dust in humility, prostrating their main limbs on the ground in humbleness, and retracting of their bellies so as to reach to their backs due to fasting by way of lowliness (before Allah), besides giving all sorts of products of the earth to the needy and the destitute by way of alms. Look what there is in these acts by way of curbing the appearance of pride and suppressing the traces of vanity.

وَعَنْ ذلِكَ مَا حَرَسَ اللهُ عِبَادَهُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ بِالصَّلَوَاتِ وَالزَّكَوَاتِ، وَمُجَاهَدَةِ الصِّيَامِ فِي الاْيَّامِ الْمَفْرُوضَاتِ، تسْكِيناً لاَطْرَافِهِمْ، وَتَخْشِيعاً لاِبْصَارِهمْ، وَتَذْلِيلاً لِنُفُوسِهِمْ، وَتَخْفِيضاً لِقُلُوبِهِمْ، وَإِذْهَاباً لِلْخُيَلاَءِ عَنْهُمْ، لِما فِي ذلِكَ مِنْ تَعْفِيرِ عِتَاقِ الْوُجُوهِ بالتُّرَابِ تَوَاضُعاً، وَالْتِصَاقِ كَرَائِمِ الْجَوَارِحِ بِالاْرْضِ تَصَاغُراً، وَلُحُوقِ الْبُطُونِ بِالمُتونِ مِنَ الصِّيَامِ تَذَلُّلاً، مَعَ مَا فِي الزَّكَاةِ مِنْ صَرْفِ ثَمَرَاتِ الاْرْضِ وَغَيْرِ ذَلِكَ إِلَى أَهْلِ الْمَسْكَنَةِ وَالْفَقْرِ. انْظُرُوا إِلَى مَا فِي هذِهِ الاْفْعَالِ مِنْ قَمْعِ نَوَاجِمِ الْفَخْرِ، وَقَدْعِ طَوَالِعِ الْكِبْرِ!




My comment: We can say this sermon is a complete theodicy as well.

The way Imam Ali (a) relates Iblis arrogance and trial Angels and humans go through, is a complete theodicy.

The fact that God could've made it different but reward would be immensely less and there would be little meaning to humans and Angels, to me solves the issue of the problem of evil. Imam Ali (a) expresses this all so eloquently and even relates it to the political situation he was in.
 
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