Signs of The End: A Baha'i View

[Lady B]

The Baha'i Scriptures explains that, all of the Manifestations of God, taught the same principles, however, the original writings of some of the older Religions are not available.
Although there is still Truth in the scriptures from Buddhism, Hinduism and Zoroasterism, but the only Scriptures that are considered to have been preserved well, are Quran, Christian Bible, and Jewish Bible.
Even Zoroasterism teaches the unity of God, and is considered Monotheism by modern zoroasterism. Please refer to Wikipedia.
So, in this discussion, there is little point to refer to scriptures that we are not sure of their originality. Therefore we put our focus on Quran and the Bible.

Please ask yourself this: If you are not sure what these prophets have said or believed how then can you consider them a prophet of the same God as in the Bible?
Also consider how God would use a messenger who contradicts all other genuine and /or proven messengers? Even if they agreed in one time, which you fail to prove, when they changed their views and chose a different path, I would surmise they do not meet the qualifications to be a prophet anymore, thus they never were.

Regarding Bahualla's writings on the tree. I would test this theory by saying If the seed is of one tree, the new tree will resemble the original tree,right? What I see in the progressive revelation you hold too is that the original tree (Bible) became a man (Bahuhala) and took on many arms and in the end ceased to be even a tree.

 

[Lady B]

Regarding the story of Creation in Bible and Quran, as it is evident those Books contain symbolism. Thus the Story of Creation in 6 days, then Adam and Eve should be interpreted symbolically, otherwise, that would be against the proven science.
Now, since God is the Source of both religion and science, how could they ever contradict each other?
Then it is clear that, literal interpretations of creation story is not permissible.

You have summed up for me in this passage alone that in your view science wins over the word of God. God said his creation was done in 6 days, never anywhere does the bible refute this or make it symbolic. I will go further to say , never anywhere does God tell us taking his word literal is not permissible. But because you put your trust in science verses God's word you sacrifice scripture to men. I do not agree at all. Science has not disproved scripture to this day, though men have many theories, I will believe God. When God finished his creation in the 6 days he said " It is good". Would God say that if the earth were filled with death and fossils, skulls etc..No indeed because God did not see death in anyway as good. Therefore I can know the science is wrong and the flood of Noah caused the layers of fossil findings, not millions of years. When ever I find a contradiction from God's word and science, I choose God's word. Period.

 

[kylixguru]

You have summed up for me in this passage alone that in your view science wins over the word of God.

Truth trumps everything.

God said his creation was done in 6 days, never anywhere does the bible refute this or make it symbolic.

Genesis 2:4 says what the creation pertains to and there is no competition with science when the Bible is properly understood.
The perspective of the Bahai Faith is correct here.

I will go further to say , never anywhere does God tell us taking his word literal is not permissible.

When God's Word contains statements that explicitly lines out a metaphor, it is the intent of God for you to decipher His Word using the metaphor He instructed you to use.
If you read metaphor in a literal way when God intended for you to decipher the symbols using the interpretive key He gives you, then you are going to go astray in your interpretation.

But because you put your trust in science verses God's word you sacrifice scripture to men. I do not agree at all. Science has not disproved scripture to this day, though men have many theories, I will believe God.

The only thing science has disproved is the false interpretations of God's Word.
All truth is in agreement and if you interpret the Bible in a way that contradicts plainly manifest scientific truths, you should contemplate the likelihood that your interpretation is where the problem is.

When God finished his creation in the 6 days he said " It is good". Would God say that if the earth were filled with death and fossils, skulls etc..No indeed because God did not see death in anyway as good. Therefore I can know the science is wrong and the flood of Noah caused the layers of fossil findings, not millions of years. When ever I find a contradiction from God's word and science, I choose God's word. Period.

But, you need to be careful not to presume that you are interpreting God's Word in the manner that He intended for you to.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Please ask yourself this: If you are not sure what these prophets have said or believed how then can you consider them a prophet of the same God as in the Bible?

Ok, I asked myself. The answer that I give to myself is that, Baha'u'llah have said so. How can I not trust the One Who is the Manifestation of God for this Age, The Promised one of All Ages?

Also consider how God would use a messenger who contradicts all other genuine and /or proven messengers? Even if they agreed in one time, which you fail to prove, when they changed their views and chose a different path, I would surmise they do not meet the qualifications to be a prophet anymore, thus they never were.

I do not see any contradictions. Do you?

Regarding Bahualla's writings on the tree. I would test this theory by saying If the seed is of one tree, the new tree will resemble the original tree,right?

Yes, I studied both Bible and Baha'i Scriptures. Both are from the same source.

What I see in the progressive revelation you hold too is that the original tree (Bible) became a man (Bahuhala) and took on many arms and in the end ceased to be even a tree

Jesus was the Word. Thus the Tree was Jesus. Now as you rightly said, the New Tree can be seen as Baha'u'llah. Both of them have the same Fruits.

 

[Lady B]

Ok, I asked myself. The answer that I give to myself is that, Baha'u'llah have said so. How can I not trust the One Who is the Manifestation of God for this Age, The Promised one of All Ages?


I do not see any contradictions. Do you?


Yes, I studied both Bible and Baha'i Scriptures. Both are from the same source.


Jesus was the Word. Thus the Tree was Jesus. Now as you rightly said, the New Tree can be seen as Baha'u'llah. Both of them have the same Fruits.

I give up, seriously I bow out and wish you all the best. Peace be with you

 

[savagewind]

No indeed because God did not see death in anyway as good

This statement is not true according to scripture.

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 1 Peter 3:18

I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds John 12:24

If the death of the savior was not good, God would not have allowed it.

What kind of death do you mean LadyB that is not good in any way?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

You have summed up for me in this passage alone that in your view science wins over the word of God. God said his creation was done in 6 days, never anywhere does the bible refute this or make it symbolic. I will go further to say , never anywhere does God tell us taking his word literal is not permissible. But because you put your trust in science verses God's word you sacrifice scripture to men. I do not agree at all. Science has not disproved scripture to this day, though men have many theories, I will believe God. When God finished his creation in the 6 days he said " It is good". Would God say that if the earth were filled with death and fossils, skulls etc..No indeed because God did not see death in anyway as good. Therefore I can know the science is wrong and the flood of Noah caused the layers of fossil findings, not millions of years. When ever I find a contradiction from God's word and science, I choose God's word. Period.

Dear LadyB,

The Messengers of God spoke according to the understanding of the people they lived in their own Age but not according to their own understanding. Once a New Manifestation of God comes in a New Age, He changes some of the things the Previous Manifestations did say to people of previous Age, and brings new teachings to create a New people in the New Age.
This is one of the most important things to think about regarding Progressive Revelations.

Let's look at Bible, and see what Jesus did. For instance:
In Matthew 19:7, the Pharisees questioned Jesus, that Why He is saying something different than the Law of God that Moses had said:


"Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"

The Pharisees asked this because Jesus had rebuked them about divorce.

Therefore Jesus said to them:

"Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." Mattew 19:9


Now lets think about what was going on between Jesus and Pharisees. Let's ponder for a moment.

How is it that although Moses Law did allow for a divorce, but the Law of Jesus did not? How is that the law of Moses did not call it adultery, but Jesus did?

The answer is clear. Because each one of Manifestations of God brings teachings for advancement of People and to create a new human civilization.

This is the reason Jesus had said:
"No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old;"

The meaning is that, He had new teachings, that was to replace the old one.

There are many things that Jesus added or changed. Read for example Matthew 5 completely.


"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell." Matthew 5:21-22


Therefore if Moses had very simply explained the story of Creation in six days, in a symbolical language, that was suitable for the people living at that time. Those people had not reached to have the capacity to understand more than that.

Now, in this Age, Baha'u'llah has taught for the people living in this Age. Therefore why should not we wear the new garment in replace of the old one? Is this not what Jesus taught?

Moreover, it was one of the Prophecies of the Bible regarding the Promised One:

"And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful." - Revelation 21:5​

Making all things new, must include bringing new teachings for the New Age.​

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I give up, seriously I bow out and wish you all the best. Peace be with you

Oh, Common. No need to give up and bow out. Just Try to show the prophecies regarding the second coming according to Bible or Quran is not fulfilled.
If you just show one of the prophecies are not fulfilled, your point is made.

 

[kylixguru]

Oh, Common. No need to give up and bow out. Just Try to show the prophecies regarding the second coming according to Bible or Quran is not fulfilled.
If you just show one of the prophecies are not fulfilled, your point is made.

I showed one and you bowed out by referring me to 17,000 works to read.

The Promised One is to be the King of a real Kingdom.
The Promised One is to be of the House of Ephraim/Joseph.
The Promised One undergoes death and resurrection. (Like Father like Son)

You have not shown how these prophesies were fulfilled.

As I have observed, your Messenger spoke OF the Promised One, not AS the Promised One.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I showed one and you bowed out by referring me to 17,000 works to read.

The Promised One is to be the King of a real Kingdom.
The Promised One is to be of the House of Ephraim/Joseph.
The Promised One undergoes death and resurrection. (Like Father like Son)

You have not shown how these prophesies were fulfilled.

As I have observed, your Messenger spoke OF the Promised One, not AS the Promised One.

Dear Kylixguru,

If you read my posts in this thread, I have shown how the prophecies are fulfilled according how it was described in holy Books.
Again to remind you, our reference is Bible and Quran. Please quote a verse from Bible or Quran that describes about a prophecy that the Promised One is supposed to fulfill. Then Show how it was not fulfilled to make your point.

What you are describing, is what you imagined how the Promised One supposed to be, but not what the Bible says.
God does not have to fulfill what people expect or imagine. He fulfills what He promised in His Book. His Wisdom is above any creature. So, let's follow according to God, not according to what we wish.

- Peace

 

[kylixguru]

Dear Kylixguru,

If you read my posts in this thread, I have shown how the prophecies are fulfilled according how it was described in holy Books.
Again to remind you, our reference is Bible and Quran. Please quote a verse from Bible or Quran that describes about a prophecy that the Promised One is supposed to fulfill. Then Show how it was not fulfilled to make your point.

What you are describing, is what you imagined how the Promised One supposed to be, but not what the Bible says.
God does not have to fulfill what people expect or imagine. He fulfills what He promised in His Book. His Wisdom is above any creature. So, let's follow according to God, not according to what we wish.

- Peace

I already showed the passages in relation to these points and they were ignored.

Was Baha'u'llah a member of the House of Ephraim or of the House of Joseph or not?

If not, then he cannot possibly have fulfilled the role of the Promised One that all prophecy points to as the Messiah.
But, it is very possible that he was receiving information about that Promised One and testifying of Him.

FYI: He did happen to be alive and active at the very same time as Baha'u'llah.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I already showed the passages in relation to these points and they were ignored.

Was Baha'u'llah a member of the House of Ephraim or of the House of Joseph or not?

If not, then he cannot possibly have fulfilled the role of the Promised One that all prophecy points to as the Messiah.
But, it is very possible that he was receiving information about that Promised One and testifying of Him.

FYI: He did happen to be alive and active at the very same time as Baha'u'llah.

I did not ignore that. You had left the discussion...

The Lion of the tribe of Judah_/1 is Baha'u'llah. The Lion of
Judah alludes to the prophecy of Jacob in Genesis 49:9-10 (KJV).
In that prophecy, the Lion symbolizes a ruler or sovereign;

Shiloh means a place of rest and
symbolizes the Ark of the
Convenant.*_/2 *"Shiloh come" equals 358
by the Hebrew gematria,
identical to "Messiah."

As the Root of David, Baha'u'llah, Who was descended from Abraham
through His third wife Katurah, is equated to Abraham, meaning
that all Prophets are in essence
one and the same.* *See _Gleanings from the
Writings of Baha'u'llah_,
pp. 88-90.

Apocalypse Unsealed: chapter 5

 

[kylixguru]

I did not ignore that. You had left the discussion...

Well, I wasn't very excited to be told to go and sift through 17,000 literary works.

The Lion of the tribe of Judah_/1 is Baha'u'llah. The Lion of Judah alludes to the prophecy of Jacob in Genesis 49:9-10 (KJV).
In that prophecy, the Lion symbolizes a ruler or sovereign;

The Lion of the Tribe of Judah was Jesus Christ who performed the advent of the Son.
That prophecy, according to verse 1, pertains to the last days.
It says the scepter departs from Judah and goes to Shiloh at that time.

Shiloh means a place of rest and symbolizes the Ark of the Convenant.*_/2 *"Shiloh come" equals 358 by the Hebrew gematria, identical to "Messiah."

Shiloh also undoubtedly is a reference to "asher-lo" which means "to whom the right belongs". This is a clear reference saying that in the last days the scepter will go back to the birthright tribe from Judah. If first goes to Ephraim, but things do not go so well for Ephraim and his past deeds catch up to him in his resurrection. But, those of Ephraim who do repent shall maintain their standing in the House of Joseph. The point is, the scepter goes back to the birthright tribe. If Baha'u'llah did not establish that he was of the birthright lineage that the entire House of Israel would ultimately give obeisance to, then he only spoke of the Promised One and not as the Promised One.

As the Root of David, Baha'u'llah, Who was descended from Abraham through His third wife Katurah, is equated to Abraham, meaning that all Prophets are in essence one and the same.* *See _Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah_,
pp. 88-90.

I definitely believe Baha'u'llah could have been a valid prophet, just as I believe such of Mohammed.

I have yet to see any of his writings that establish him as the advent of the Father who came to make an entirely new Creation. I see him as a voice to the people of his culture testifying of the advent of the Father that did exist at that time elsewhere.

Apocalypse Unsealed: chapter 5

I'll give this a look at get back to you.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well, I wasn't very excited to be told to go and sift through 17,000 literary works.

Well, Jesus prophecised that, He still had many things to say, When the Spirit of Truth come, He shall tell.

17000 works is the fullfilment of "He still had many things to say"

The Lion of the Tribe of Judah was Jesus Christ who performed the advent of the Son.
That prophecy, according to verse 1, pertains to the last days.

According to Chapter of revelation, the Lion is the Promised one at the End Time:

"And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." Rev. 5:5​

It says the scepter departs from Judah and goes to Shiloh at that time.

Shiloh also undoubtedly is a reference to "asher-lo" which means "to whom the right belongs". This is a clear reference saying that in the last days the scepter will go back to the birthright tribe from Judah. If first goes to Ephraim, but things do not go so well for Ephraim and his past deeds catch up to him in his resurrection. But, those of Ephraim who do repent shall maintain their standing in the House of Joseph. The point is, the scepter goes back to the birthright tribe. If Baha'u'llah did not establish that he was of the birthright lineage that the entire House of Israel would ultimately give obeisance to, then he only spoke of the Promised One and not as the Promised One.

Refer to Samuel 4:3:

"When the soldiers returned to camp, the elders of Israel asked, "Why did the LORD bring defeat upon us today before the Philistines? Let us bring the ark of the LORD's covenant from Shiloh, so that it may go with us and save us from the hand of our enemies.""


Now in Gen 49:10 it says:


"The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him

shall the gathering of the people be."​

So, what does it mean by coming of Shiloh? I think the answer is in Samuel 4:3.
So, The coming Of Shiolah symbolizes the Covenant of The Lord.
Now, According to New Testament, "Ark" is the Symbol of Faith, or Covenant of God.​

Baha'u'llah in His Writings refered to His Cause as "Crimson Ark":​

"Happy the man that hath entered the shadow of its luminous standard, and laid fast hold thereon. He, verily, is of the Companions of the Crimson Ark, which hath been mentioned in the Qayyúm-i-Asmá."​

It is interesting to note that in Gen. 49:11 Prophecises about "Red Color" (Crimson), symbolizing the color of the Covenant:​

"He will tether his donkey to a vine, his colt to the choicest branch; he will wash his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes."​

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 101-134​

I definitely believe Baha'u'llah could have been a valid prophet, just as I believe such of Mohammed. ​

OK​

I have yet to see any of his writings that establish him as the advent of the Father who came to make an entirely new Creation. I see him as a voice to the people of his culture testifying of the advent of the Father that did exist at that time elsewhere.​

"This is the Day whereon naught can be seen except the splendors of the Light that shineth from the face of Thy Lord, the Gracious, the Most Bountiful. Verily, We have caused every soul to expire by virtue of Our irresistible and all-subduing sovereignty. We have, then, called into being a new creation, as a token of Our grace unto men. I am, verily, the All-Bountiful, the Ancient of Days. "​

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 27-35​

"Whoso firmly believeth today in the rebirth of man and is fully conscious that God, the Most Exalted, wieldeth supreme ascendancy and absolute authority over this new creation, verily such a man is reckoned with them that are endued with insight in this most great Revelation. Unto this beareth witness every discerning believer. "​

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 137-152


"Never since the beginning of the world hath the Message been so openly proclaimed…. Glorified be this Power which hath shone forth and compassed the worlds!" - Baha'u'llah


"Is there any excuse left for anyone in this Revelation? No, by God, the Lord of the Mighty Throne! My signs have encompassed the earth, and My power enveloped all mankind, and yet the people are wrapped in a strange sleep!" - Baha'u'llah

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 44-49

 

[kylixguru]

Well, Jesus prophecised that, He still had many things to say, When the Spirit of Truth come, He shall tell.

17000 works is the fullfilment of "He still had many things to say"

Well, it could be, but I have yet to make a reasonable assessment of them to know.

According to Chapter of revelation, the Lion is the Promised one at the End Time:

"And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof." Rev. 5:5​

This is a reference to the Godhead, which is composed of 3 personages. You have the advents of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost. They are all One being as well. This is where the Trinity doctrine stems from. I have participated in this debate elsewhere so I won't go into it further here beyond saying that these 3 personages were typified as the "stem", "rod" and "branch" from the "root" of David.

Jesus was the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.
Adam fallen as the Holy Ghost was the Rod from the Tribe of Ephraim.
Adam redeemed as the Father is the Branch from the Tribe of Joseph.

These 3 personages are not just Manifestations of God, they are direct Personages of God. The personage of the advent of the Father is the spiritual union of the Son and the Holy Ghost. This is why the Qur'aan rightly says that taking the Trinity as 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1 is an incorrect understanding.

The advent of the Father is in the beginning of a cycle of Creation.
The advent of the Son is in the middle of a cycle of Creation.
The advent of the Holy Ghost is at the end of a cycle of Creation.

What we have is the Father coming at the end to establish His Kingdom but He transgresses and falls and becomes the Holy Ghost.
Then, we also have the advent of the Son of Man, who is God's Christ.
The Son of Man is a return of the advent of the Son to save the Holy Ghost.
When Son of Man redeems the Holy Ghost, they enter into spiritual union.
The end result of this redemption is realized through the advent of the Father who is put back upon His Throne in victory.
​

As I read the things I've read so far that Baha'u'llah has written, he is giving voice to God who is speaking about what God is doing in the end times with the advents of the Holy Ghost, Son of Man and the Father.

I see no evidence that Baha'u'llah himself is actually anything more than a local level Prophet (Manifestation of God) who is contributing to the ultimate triumph of what God has established that he is speaking about.

When a prophet is moved upon to speak for the Lord, we should not at the same time presume that the prophet is speaking of himself. He is merely giving voice for God to speak to the people at large through that instrument in the first person style.

Refer to Samuel 4:3:

"When the soldiers returned to camp, the elders of Israel asked, "Why did the LORD bring defeat upon us today before the Philistines? Let us bring the ark of the LORD's covenant from Shiloh, so that it may go with us and save us from the hand of our enemies.""

The scepter was indeed removed from Ephraim in the old times.
That's why in the times of the end the scepter goes back to whom it rightly belongs.
It belongs with the birthright tribe and does indeed go back to it.

Now in Gen 49:10 it says:

"The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him

shall the gathering of the people be."​

So, what does it mean by coming of Shiloh? I think the answer is in Samuel 4:3.
So, The coming Of Shiolah symbolizes the Covenant of The Lord.
Now, According to New Testament, "Ark" is the Symbol of Faith, or Covenant of God.​

How can Samuel 4:3 be a fulfillment of a prophesy that isn't fulfilled until the last days?
It says when Shiloh comes that the scepter departs from Judah.
It is unto Shiloh that the gathering of the people shall be.
Ephraim has the responsibility of the birthright and is not to be ignored.
​

Baha'u'llah in His Writings refered to His Cause as "Crimson Ark":

​

"Happy the man that hath entered the shadow of its luminous standard, and laid fast hold thereon. He, verily, is of the Companions of the Crimson Ark, which hath been mentioned in the Qayyúm-i-Asmá."​

That doesn't create any substantive connection to him being of the Tribe of Ephraim.
​

It is interesting to note that in Gen. 49:11 Prophecises about "Red Color" (Crimson), symbolizing the color of the Covenant:

​

"He will tether his donkey to a vine, his colt to the choicest branch; he will wash his garments in wine, his robes in the blood of grapes."​

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 101-134​

That is a definite stretch that I do not consider conclusive or substantive.

"This is the Day whereon naught can be seen except the splendors of the Light that shineth from the face of Thy Lord, the Gracious, the Most Bountiful. Verily, We have caused every soul to expire by virtue of Our irresistible and all-subduing sovereignty. We have, then, called into being a new creation, as a token of Our grace unto men. I am, verily, the All-Bountiful, the Ancient of Days. "

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 27-35​

This is the Lord speaking for Himself via a Prophet, not a Prophet speaking for and about himself.

"Whoso firmly believeth today in the rebirth of man and is fully conscious that God, the Most Exalted, wieldeth supreme ascendancy and absolute authority over this new creation, verily such a man is reckoned with them that are endued with insight in this most great Revelation. Unto this beareth witness every discerning believer. "

​

Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 137-152

And, again, this is a reference to what God is accomplishing.
Baha'u'llah is bearing witness of what God is doing.
I still don't see anything that convinces me that it is Baha'u'llah that is actually the object of what is being claimed.

"Never since the beginning of the world hath the Message been so openly proclaimed…. Glorified be this Power which hath shone forth and compassed the worlds!" - Baha'u'llah

And, its ironic that people read into the open proclamation of it that the proclamation itself is it.

"Is there any excuse left for anyone in this Revelation? No, by God, the Lord of the Mighty Throne! My signs have encompassed the earth, and My power enveloped all mankind, and yet the people are wrapped in a strange sleep!" - Baha'u'llah

Bahá'í Reference Library - The Promised Day Is Come, Pages 44-49

The strange sleep people are wrapped up in is the sleep of making assumptions and then holding to those assumptions like their life depends upon it.

 

[kylixguru]

Apocalypse Unsealed: chapter 5

Ok, I looked at this and the understanding it has about the 7 seals perhaps has some value, but it is not the fullest and most clarifying way to decipher the seals.

It calls 7 major world religions as each representative of a seal and that by combining them together you get access to the hidden book behind the seals. I don't see the seals as being this, though there is value in the principle being touched upon by looking for the unifying truths between the separate religions God has dispensed to man.

If you go over and visit the thread I created focusing on the Hidden Book, the Qur'aan clearly speaks of the Book as being available from any one of the valid religions that God has dispensed to man. The "Book", as it is called, was said to be in the Torah, the Bible and the Qur'aan. You don't actually need to combine these religions before you can gain access to the Book. The Book is accessible from any of them, and this is precisely because they are all build upon a foundation from the Torah, which is where the seals of the Book are to be found. And, as it says, the seals are on the outer part of the actual host Book. The seals are in Genesis right in the very beginning where the days of creation are outlined. Each seal pertains to a 1,000 year dispensation and what is said to take place in the creation during that day is a blueprint or a schedule of what actually shall happen during that 1,000 year dispensation. When you know what the seals are and what they pertain to and how to open them, then you have the whole mystery of it all brought wide open to your view. You will also see that at the very time of Baha'u'llah, Adam, the Ancient of Days, was indeed placed upon the earth and was given a Kingdom and was laying the foundation of a new cycle of Creation. But, He transgressed and fell, just as Baha'u'llah warned would happen if the people didn't pay sufficient heed to Him. He wasn't talking about people paying sufficient heed to himself as if he was the new Adam, but he was speaking about the new Adam that was contemporary to him.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Well, it could be, but I have yet to make a reasonable assessment of them to know.

That is upto you.

This is a reference to the Godhead, which is composed of 3 personages

This is incorrect and not Biblical. It is rejected by old testament, as it never says, God is composed of 3 person.

You have the advents of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost.

Every revelation is the Advant of the Father. God is invisible, and He never Himself appears. The Son was the title of Jesus. He was also a Prophet of God, and the Image of God, who said whatever God said.

They are all One being as well. This is where the Trinity doctrine stems from. I have participated in this debate elsewhere so I won't go into it further here beyond saying that these 3 personages were typified as the "stem", "rod" and "branch" from the "root" of David.

See My post #10. I have rejected the 3 personages as parts of God.

Jesus was the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.

Jesus was the Lamb according to Bible. Please support your claim from Bible.

Adam fallen as the Holy Ghost was the Rod from the Tribe of Ephraim.
Adam redeemed as the Father is the Branch from the Tribe of Joseph.

Not related to our discussion.

These 3 personages are not just Manifestations of God, they are direct Personages of God. The personage of the advent of the Father is the spiritual union of the Son and the Holy Ghost. This is why the Qur'aan rightly says that taking the Trinity as 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3 = 1 is an incorrect understanding.

See above please.

The advent of the Father is in the beginning of a cycle of Creation.
The advent of the Son is in the middle of a cycle of Creation.
The advent of the Holy Ghost is at the end of a cycle of Creation.

There is nothing like this in Bible.

What we have is the Father coming at the end to establish His Kingdom but He transgresses and falls and becomes the Holy Ghost.

Nothing like this in Bible.

Then, we also have the advent of the Son of Man, who is God's Christ.
The Son of Man is a return of the advent of the Son to save the Holy Ghost.
When Son of Man redeems the Holy Ghost, they enter into spiritual union.
The end result of this redemption is realized through the advent of the Father who is put back upon His Throne in victory.
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Ok, but there is nothing like this in Bible.

Please remember, accroding to Bible, the Book is sealed, and only the Promised One can open the seals. So although you can have interesting interpretations, but you wouldn't be able to figure it out on you own, because the Book is sealed.
Baha'u'llah unsealed the Book:

"We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers of might and power. To this beareth witness that which the Pen of Revelation hath revealed. Meditate upon this, O men of insight!…" - Baha'u'llah

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 119-121

As I read the things I've read so far that Baha'u'llah has written, he is giving voice to God who is speaking about what God is doing in the end times with the advents of the Holy Ghost, Son of Man and the Father.

Well, Baha'u'llah has said the Day of Resurrection has passed, the hour has passed:

"Among them are those who have said: ....‘Hath the Hour come?’ ‘Nay, more; it hath passed, by Him Who is the Revealer of clear tokens! Verily, the Inevitable is come, and He, the True One, hath appeared with proof and testimony. ...And they say: ...Is the Resurrection come?’ ‘Nay, more; He Who is the Self-Subsisting hath appeared with the Kingdom of His signs" - Baha'u'llah

Bahá'í Reference Library - Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, Pages 121-140

I see no evidence that Baha'u'llah himself is actually anything more than a local level Prophet (Manifestation of God) who is contributing to the ultimate triumph of what God has established that he is speaking about.

See above.


I reply to the rest a bit later, when I get some time.
- Peace

 

[Lady B]

What we have is the Father coming at the end to establish His Kingdom but He transgresses and falls and becomes the Holy Ghost.
Then, we also have the advent of the Son of Man, who is God's Christ.
The Son of Man is a return of the advent of the Son to save the Holy Ghost.
When Son of Man redeems the Holy Ghost, they enter into spiritual union.
The end result of this redemption is realized through the advent of the Father who is put back upon His Throne in victory.

seriously? you believe this? where ever did you get this?

 

[kylixguru]

seriously? you believe this? where ever did you get this?

Yes, totally and completely.
Come and visit the http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/scriptural-debates/139802-adam-alpha-omega.html thread and see part of why I see it this way.

 

[kylixguru]

This is incorrect and not Biblical. It is rejected by old testament, as it never says, God is composed of 3 person.

Look at Isaiah 44:6.

LORD = King of Israel (Michael)
LORD of hosts = Redeemer of the King (Jehovah)
King and Redeemer in Union = God (Eloheim)

Every revelation is the Advant of the Father. God is invisible, and He never Himself appears. The Son was the title of Jesus. He was also a Prophet of God, and the Image of God, who said whatever God said.

We have differences in semantics.
There are three Messianic figures and a God's Christ figure as well.

Baha'u'llah wasn't any of these figures, but he appears to have testified of them.

I have rejected the 3 personages as parts of God.

I agree the Trinity as commonly understood is flawed.

Jesus was the Lamb according to Bible. Please support your claim from Bible.

He was also the Lion of the Tribe of Judah.

And, as far as being the lamb goes, he did represent the fulfillment of the passover lamb of the spring feast/harvest. Don't forget that there is also the animals of the fall feasts to look for the fulfillment of too.

There is nothing like this in Bible.

Yes there is. The Father comes in the end and in the beginning as the Alpha and the Omega. He too undergoes a cycle of death and rebirth. He falls and dies at the end and becomes the Holy Ghost and He is redeemed and stands as the Father to complete what He started in laying the foundation for a new cycle of Creation.

Nothing like this in Bible.

Sure there is, read the narrative about Adam.

Ok, but there is nothing like this in Bible.

I agree it is not totally obvious, but that is what you come to understand when you are able to read within the sealed portion of the Bible.

Please remember, accroding to Bible, the Book is sealed, and only the Promised One can open the seals. So although you can have interesting interpretations, but you wouldn't be able to figure it out on you own, because the Book is sealed.

I don't claim to have unsealed it. There was someone contemporary to Baha'u'llah who unsealed it back in the 1830's.

Baha'u'llah unsealed the Book:

"We have unsealed the choice Wine with the fingers of might and power. To this beareth witness that which the Pen of Revelation hath revealed. Meditate upon this, O men of insight!…" - Baha'u'llah

Bahá'í Reference Library - Proclamation of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 119-121

Nope, I investigated the claims by the commentators that such was the case but what they present as such does not open the deepest levels of the sealed portion.

Well, Baha'u'llah has said the Day of Resurrection has passed, the hour has passed:

At that time Adam had indeed brought in the morning of the first resurrection and it was well underway.

"Among them are those who have said: ....‘Hath the Hour come?’ ‘Nay, more; it hath passed, by Him Who is the Revealer of clear tokens! Verily, the Inevitable is come, and He, the True One, hath appeared with proof and testimony. ...And they say: ...Is the Resurrection come?’ ‘Nay, more; He Who is the Self-Subsisting hath appeared with the Kingdom of His signs" - Baha'u'llah

Bahá'í Reference Library - Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, Pages 121-140

And indeed it had. Baha'u'llah was merely voice to speak of what was actually truly happening elsewhere.

I reply to the rest a bit later, when I get some time.
- Peace

Sounds good to me. Take care!