Smoking Gun, Oh Atheists?

[BilliardsBall]

If you got to become God afterwards and reap eternal reward, as well as "save" all of humanity and be revered and worshipped forever after your death by them, it's not really much of a "sacrifice", is it?

Instead of answering my question with a question, please tell me why crucifixion isn't a big deal for the human who was Jesus.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Lived out sincerity according to whom? Who studied the authors to give us this picture you are trying to paint? They wrote these books. We know virtually nothing else about them. Of course those books are well written. Of course they strike an appealing tone. But the same could be said of any number of authors. How do you know they were good men? Because they said so?

My examples simply point out that good writing or oratory skills does not make one a good person. It does not make their motives good or pure.

Correct. Now, assess 40 writers, all with good writing and oratory, who are all self-revealing about their weaknesses, and all point to Christ.

Your issue is you a skeptic who will say, "why didn't people talk about Jesus, if He existed?" when 12 writers did in the NT alone!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Oh no, you are way off base. There are probably hundreds of writers who wrote these books and many like them. We know of many dozens that were not included. There have been a half dozen written in just the last century. They haven't all been included because someone, somewhere decided they were apocryphal.

But your question is an easy one to answer simply by rephrasing the question. Why would a person think adding their voice to a book known throughout the known world (or at the very least their own country) as the truth? Why would someone want to be immortalized like that? Why would they want to promote themselves and their beliefs to others? Why would they want to inspire others to follow them? Why would they want to push a shift in doctrine away from what was a jew only biased religion to one that could be open to the wealthy romans who controlled everything?

I wonder... it's almost like they wanted their religion to appeal to the rest of the world. To have as large a population as possible. It's almost like they wanted to influence world leaders and current events.

After all, what happened not long after the gospels were written? A long line of popes managed to create the wealthiest church in the world. A religion that influenced kings and drove the wealthiest countries in Europe to their knees, A religion who essentially decided which of those writings were included in the bible...

I would say all you need do is look at the impact these authors had on the world to understand their motives.

Did you answer my question as to why the dozens of writers all had univocal stories about God and Christ? What does that have to do with what some popes with armies did? (Nothing).

 

[BilliardsBall]

Except I wouldn't. I realize that death for death really solves and fixes nothing.

Probably. It obviously didn't kill him enough for him to stay dead.

I hear a ton of Christians saying it. That we are all god's children. God created us, died for us, and we are his children.

You need to discern what the Bible and not just random Christians say. In the Bible, Jesus challenged the notion that all our God's children (since God's children don't crucify the Christ and etc.).

Perhaps when you are crucified or I am crucified, we can see if it's "no big deal". Don't be silly!

 

[BilliardsBall]

I just listed some ways rapists justify their raping.
Of course, because they have justified it, they do not consider it rape.
In some cases they honestly believe it is their right.

No, I'm saying that posting a spouse rape as less than evil is inappropriate. I'm sure you agree.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Hitler was a good Catholic with Vatican backing, the leader of a majority Protestant country.
Hitler was not only a confessed Christian, his intolerance and atrocities were consistent with Biblical scripture.
Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."

He said "We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity … in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people."

He insisted his troops were blessed by a priest before battle

And he made the military motto "gott mit uns" which translates to 'god with us'

http://i8.ebayimg.com/06/i/001/27/b8/49ac_1.JPG

The military motto was from WWI long before Hitler. Your post contains canards.

 

[BilliardsBall]

If you were to become god think of all the things you could do

Then ask yourself why your god hasn't done any.

I just did, answer--"I died for Christine M."

 

[BilliardsBall]

maybe something is left out in the translation? I don't see that in the English, and I'm afraid that is my only language (well, a tiny bit of Spanish, but not enough to be worth anything).

I understand. If a woman cries out, kill the man--or kill them both--rape--consensual fornication...

 

[BilliardsBall]

The golden rule was taught by Jesus in the new testament. Also, one of the commandments is to worship no other god, you're forgetting that the old testament was for the Jews. The OT also plainly explained that owning non-Jews as slaves was perfectly expectable. The OT allowed for them to beat their slaves to death even, as long as they died after a few days.



Human beings are social animals. Those of us who are mentally healthy have empathy and enough common sense to realize that for any group to remain stable and productive we need to respect one another.



I have this thing called empathy. Coupled with an imagination and the golden rule it was easy to determine that rape is wrong. I've already explained all this.



Humans evolved instincts to help them to survive just like every other creature on earth. I believe urges to harm others needlessly is born of anomalous traits that are harmful to our species. Soon humanity will have the medical knowledge to take control of our development or arrest it at the point it currently is. Only time will tell what will happen.

I question, sincerely, that medical knowledge will enable you and I to no longer disobey the dictates of conscience--medicine cannot stop us from being sinners in need of redemption.

 

[BilliardsBall]

If Christian apologetics were rational and logical why wouldn't everyone become Christians?



I have stated numerous times in other threads that the human race is irrational. The fact that most humans believe in some form of invisible supernatural beings/forces of some kind for thousands of years with ZERO evidence to support ANY of it is solid evidence for my position.

You do realize your second sentence answers your first?

People disobey logical apologetics because they like sin. Sin makes rational people irrational.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What i mean is that i cannot understand how do your post #520 addressing the content of my post #512.

Please explain how do your post #520 addressing the content of my post #512.

Your post #520:

My post #512:

Thank you!

Sin is doing something you tell yourself you shouldn't do. Disobeying the dictates of your conscience. I submit that those who are mentally well always know when they do intentional harm.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

You need to discern what the Bible and not just random Christians say. In the Bible, Jesus challenged the notion that all our God's children (since God's children don't crucify the Christ and etc.).

Yes, and the Bible says Jesus died for everyone, not anyone sort or type of people specifically.
And why wouldn't God's Children crucify Christ? It had to happen. Why would someone who is truly loyal and dedicated want to prevent such a thing from happening?

Perhaps when you are crucified or I am crucified, we can see if it's "no big deal". Don't be silly!

If it's part of the deal that I get to come back to life, it wouldn't be nearly as big of a deal as it is to a mere mortal who will not be returning to life.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Sin is doing something you tell yourself you shouldn't do.

I drank a soda this morning. It meets the "tell yourself you shouldn't" part, but it is not a sin.
Where once I was shackled by this notion of sin, now I am free.

 

[ChristineM]

The military motto was from WWI long before Hitler. Your post contains canards.

That's quackers...;-)

In Prussia It was used as a military motto from the mid 1800s to the end of ww2 (1945)

Gott mit uns! German Military History 1848-1945

 

[ChristineM]

The military motto was from WWI long before Hitler. Your post contains canards.

That's quackers...;-)

In Prussia It was used as a military motto from the mid 1800s to the end of ww2 (1945)

Gott mit uns! German Military History 1848-1945

 

[ChristineM]

I just did, answer--"I died for Christine M."

It was not a question, it was a statement of self analysts

"If you were to become god think of all the things you could do

Then ask yourself why your god hasn't done any."

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I disagree. I see where unwed victims of a war were wed, not raped. You've ignored what I posted regarding the customary head shaving and 30-day waiting period.

I quoted an exact verse of the Bible which states, quite clearly, that God punished a man by having his WIVES "lie with" his neighbour in public. They were not "victims of a war", and they were not "wed" to their rapist.

Apparently you also believe it's okay to force someone to marry you if they are a victim of war. Clearly, you are not as opposed to rape as you like to think you are.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Instead of answering my question with a question, please tell me why crucifixion isn't a big deal for the human who was Jesus.

I just gave you an answer. To meaningfully "sacrifice" something, one has to actually LOSE something. Jesus supposedly suffered, sure, but after three days of suffering they were then returned to life before ascending to heaven and becoming the literally most powerful being in existence and got to be continually praised by billions of people for thousands of years. In other words, Jesus ended up with MORE, not LESS. Nothing was sacrificed. Especially when you remember that the need for a sacrifice to begin with was created by Jesus in the fist place. They literally didn't have to die, suffer or do anything in order to produce the exact same result. It's like me hiring a hit-man to kill you, and then making a "sacrifice" by calling off the hit man and being endlessly praised for it. It's absurd.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Correct. Now, assess 40 writers, all with good writing and oratory, who are all self-revealing about their weaknesses, and all point to Christ.

The New Testament points to Christ. You'd have to make your case that the Old Testament does as well.

Your issue is you a skeptic who will say, "why didn't people talk about Jesus, if He existed?" when 12 writers did in the NT alone!

A heck of a lot more than 12 people wrote about Jesus... and that's just limiting ourselves to the time period of the books of the canonical Bible:

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

 

[Underhill]

Correct. Now, assess 40 writers, all with good writing and oratory, who are all self-revealing about their weaknesses, and all point to Christ.

Your issue is you a skeptic who will say, "why didn't people talk about Jesus, if He existed?" when 12 writers did in the NT alone!

It is fairly unique in history. Although not unheard of. Hundreds of authors wrote about greek and roman deities. If the best of these had been put into a single book form, it would have fit the mold.

My point is this. Many religions have multitudes of authors that wrote about it early in its existence. The main thing that differentiates the bible is that a bunch of clergy got together and codified many of these text into one, mostly matching, text. They understood that not doing this would lead to fragmentation within the church of the day.

 

[Underhill]

Did you answer my question as to why the dozens of writers all had univocal stories about God and Christ? What does that have to do with what some popes with armies did? (Nothing).

Because most of them were in the same circle of friends. They were certainly part of the same 'christian' movement which was fairly small and localized at the time. Why is it strange that they all tell a similar (but not identical) story of Jesus?

Those stories that went too far afield were not included in the bible. (which makes sense when one is trying to build a foundation for a new church.