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So apparently religious people are dumber than atheists.

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There's more people who are religious, bigger range of intelligence. Less people who are atheists and yes, it takes more effort and thinking to research and form your own opinions when a lot of people just stick with what they were born into.

The issue is whether or not the study controlled for such things. However, as it is a meta-analysis, we have to look at the actual studies to really know. And having started that process, we might realize that in this particular study, of the 63 analyzed studies about a 3rd were conducted in this century. About 1/6 were conducted before 1960, and most were conducted before 1980.

But the fun doesn't stop there! Because not all studies were equal. This is true in many ways, but a rather fundamental one is number of subjects. Most had between ~100 & ~200. But 3 studies had over a 10,000. What were they?

Why Liberals and Atheists Are More Intelligent

Deptula, D. P., Henry, D. B., Shoeny, M. E., & Slavick, J. T. (2006). Adolescent sexual behavior and attitudes: a costs and benefits approach. Journal of Adolescent Health, 38(1), 35-43.

[this one was great. They asked a bunch of kids ~15 years old about sex, and then for some controls threw in a 1-4 "how religious are you" question and administered one cognitive test. What was the most statistically significant indicator of intelligence? Age. Remarkably, scientists determined that being young is correlated with things like acting like idiots. Just about any parent of teenagers could have told them that, but science requires careful observation and logic, not basic common sense. It's too common, and that's the last thing scientists want to be.]

Sherkat, D. E. (2010). Religion and verbal ability. Social Science Research, 39(1), 2-13.

[this one was even better. 90% of the sample were religious. Why? Because the study was really testing whether or not more fundamentalists attitudes towards the bible predicted verbal ability, and thus wanted more Christians. I can take that data and show that being Jewish or Episcopalian is a better predictor of intelligence than being non-religious.]

Then there are the studies that I still can't figure out how they managed to work into their results, such as
Corey, S. M. (1940). Changes in the opinions of female students after one year at a university. The Journal of Social Psychology, 11(2), 341-351.

Many of the studies didn't focus on or actually include measures of intelligence and/or religiousity.


I don't think someone is more intelligent being an atheist but rather from doing their own research and forming their own opinion.

Wouldn't that make converts to a religion equally likely to be intelligent? And it would make agnostics the stupidest, because they don't have an opinion other than "I dunno"?

Intelligence is an important thing to study, although I think far too many studies have concentrated on using education (along with other variables) to predict intelligence rather than look into what the quality of education one receives can predict.


Because this is not by any means the most studied relationship between intelligence and something else:

"A Black–White group difference on intelligence test scores has persisted in the literature for over 90 years. Currently, the group IQ mean for Blacks (85) remains about one-standard deviation below the group IQ mean for Whites (100; see, e.g., Neisser et al., 1996, Lynn, 2006 and Rushton and Jensen, 2006). Though the difference exists, no consensus as to its cause is likely forthcoming. Some argue that research here is flawed because race-based classifications are invalid (see e.g., Sternberg et al., 2005 and Tate and Audette, 2001), or because a single, global IQ score cannot adequately represent human intelligence (see, e.g., Gardner 1983). Others argue that Black–White differences are real—due neither to cultural, nor test bias—and at least partly driven by genes (see, e.g., Herrnstein and Murray, 1994, Rushton and Jensen, 2005 and Gottfredson, 2005a)." (emphases added)

Pesta, B. J., & Poznanski, P. J. (2008). Black–White differences on IQ and grades: The mediating role of elementary cognitive tasks. Intelligence, 36(4), 323-329.



A glad as I am that at the very least there are innumerable and much more obvious reasons for the racial disparity (and nobody is citing The Bell Curve as reliable literature), I do find it curious that when religiousity or political conservatism are used to predict intelligence, we never find the argument that the entire approach to intelligence testing is flawed as there are simply to many factors for "a single, global IQ score" to "adequately represent human intelligence".

Give me any cohort (students, randomly sampled and appropriately weighted individuals across the country, selective/controlled sampling from geographic regions, mosque/church/temple/Dawkins fans, etc.) and scores that approximate continuous variables like IQ scores or pre-college scores, and I can show you just about any group is smarter than another by asking the right questions and using likert scale variables (1-5 is standard, but 1-6 is better because it removes the option to go for the middle). Why? Because one set of scores can be changed ever so slightly or grouped in just the right way, and the difference in the correlations will shift dramatically. This is especially true if, as in several of the studies used by the meta-analysis, I use something like structural equation modelling (SEM) which is either an extremely powerful statistical tool or a way to get whatever results you want.
 
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yoda89

On Xtended Vacation
awesome_484.gif
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Give me any cohort (students, randomly sampled and appropriately weighted individuals across the country, selective/controlled sampling from geographic regions, mosque/church/temple/Dawkins fans, etc.) and scores that approximate continuous variables like IQ scores or pre-college scores, and I can show you just about any group is smarter than another by asking the right questions and using likert scale variables (1-5 is standard, but 1-6 is better because it removes the option to go for the middle). Why? Because one set of scores can be changed ever so slightly or grouped in just the right way, and the difference in the correlations will shift dramatically. This is especially true if, as in several of the studies used by the meta-analysis, I use something like structural equation modelling (SEM) which is either an extremely powerful statistical tool or a way to get whatever results you want.
If you have time, I would love it if you would add more to this. I've found it fascinating for quite a while, but never had the chance to really learn about it.
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If you have time, I would love it if you would add more to this. I've found it fascinating for quite a while, but never had the chance to really learn about it.
Sure. But what do you mean by "it" exactly? The problems with the use of mathematical/statistical techniques like those regularly used because software packages like MATLAB, SPSS, Maple, etc., make this possible to do (even without really knowing anything about the techniques), or pros, cons, tips, tricks (in the positive sense),. etc., of different multivariate statistics & mathematical models? Or something else?

For example, I spent a very long time on the various ways that statisticians in different fields (including mathematics) deal with categorical variables including likert-scale data. There's a lot out there, yet it's a lot easier to treat responses as if they were numbers, and then use standard regression techniques that assume a contiguous (not discrete) interval. SAT, IQ, and similar scores approximate continuous data because when you can range over a large enough set the differences between truly continuous and approximately continuous wash out (for the most part). But with SATs, for example, we're dealing with scores that reach 2400. To pretend that "very religious" or "very liberal" is equal to 5 is bad enough. But then to use this number to correlate it with some range of scores like 1800-2400 is inadequate. More sophisticated techniques allow for more accuracy but also are more prone to distortion. The generalized linear model is the standard social and behavioral sciences class of statistical tests. Modern methods use graph theory, path analysis, nonlinear multidimensional scaling, and a host of other techniques that require a pretty nuanced grasp of algebraic structures and analysis (calculus). Few in the sciences actually get that kind of training, but can perform these tests because they have software to do so.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Sure. But what do you mean by "it" exactly? The problems with the use of mathematical/statistical techniques like those regularly used because software packages like MATLAB, SPSS, Maple, etc., make this possible to do (even without really knowing anything about the techniques), or pros, cons, tips, tricks (in the positive sense),. etc., of different multivariate statistics & mathematical models? Or something else?
I was thinking mainly of how to make any other group look smarter (or generally "better") by asking the right questions, and how SEM can be used to get whatever results the questioner wants in advance -- but, I'm open to learning more about anything; curiosity is one of my main characteristics. :D
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I was thinking mainly of how to make any other group look smarter (or generally "better") by asking the right questions, and how SEM can be used to get whatever results the questioner wants in advance -- but, I'm open to learning more about anything; curiosity is one of my main characteristics. :D

Excellent! Although I think I should start a new thread related to the current topic but with a focus on the methods/data analysis. It's slightly easier for me to actually approximate brevity if I start a thread, and the scope of how intelligence between and/or within groups is treated goes beyond religiousity.
 

illykitty

RF's pet cat
Wouldn't that make converts to a religion equally likely to be intelligent? And it would make agnostics the stupidest, because they don't have an opinion other than "I dunno"?

Some converts have done their own research and find their own answers. I don't see why they would be less intelligent. I'm told to be an intelligent person and yet I'm a theist (though I won't claim to know for 100%). Why would this make me less intelligent?

Nope I don't think they would be, admitting you don't know everything is, imo, better than to pretend to have all answers. Besides, it shows that they thought about it, that it's not just black and white. There's more possibilities than hard core people on both sides.

I think this "research" is an attempt to make atheists feel superior because of the condemnation they experienced in bible belts, etc. I personally hate this, it causes divisions and does nothing but cause more hate on both sides. Nothing good comes out of stuff like this.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Excellent! Although I think I should start a new thread related to the current topic but with a focus on the methods/data analysis. It's slightly easier for me to actually approximate brevity if I start a thread, and the scope of how intelligence between and/or within groups is treated goes beyond religiousity.
Awesome; if you do make a thread on it, PLEASE let me know! :)
 

lewisnotmiller

Grand Hat
Staff member
Premium Member
Excellent! Although I think I should start a new thread related to the current topic but with a focus on the methods/data analysis. It's slightly easier for me to actually approximate brevity if I start a thread, and the scope of how intelligence between and/or within groups is treated goes beyond religiousity.

I'd be most interested in at least lurking in such a thread. Mind you, you'll have to use small words if you want me to follow along. Despite being an atheist, I'm on the lower end of the IQ food chain.
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Excellent! Although I think I should start a new thread related to the current topic but with a focus on the methods/data analysis. It's slightly easier for me to actually approximate brevity if I start a thread, and the scope of how intelligence between and/or within groups is treated goes beyond religiousity.

Good idea!
 
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