So where will you go? (81:23)

[Link]

Is it God, or is it a person in a God costume?

We are talking about if in theory there is a God and a path to him, where are we going if we turn aside from that path? If Mohammad (s) for example is a path, where are we going if avoiding him?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

We are talking about if in theory there is a God and a path to him, where are we going if we turn aside from that path? If Mohammad (s) for example is a path, where are we going if avoiding him?

No, that's what you're talking about.

I see no reason to believe that God exists at all, and even less reason to see Muhammad or any other "prophet" as a path to him/her/it/them.

Setting that aside, though, even if we assumed for argument's sake that God existed and communicated through some small set of prophets, it would make very little difference in helping us decide that any particular so-called prophet was correct.

I hope you agree that there are certainly more false prophets and charlatans out there than real ones. Any particular person putting themselves forward as a prophet is more likely to be false than real.

The time to follow some religion on the strength of its "prophet" claims is after you establish that:

• The prophet's God exists
• The prophet's God is someone you ought to follow
• The prophet is a genuine prophet of this God
• The prophet accurately transmitted the "word of God" as they received it
• This "word of God" has been accurately preserved since the prophet transmitted it
• Your particular religion is properly interpreting this "word of God"

Until you do all this, it's pretty presumptuous - and IMO chauvinistic - to assume that someone who isn't abiding by the tenets of your particular religion is "travelling away from God."

I mean, do you drink coffee or tea? The Mormons think that God has forbidden this. Do you think drinking coffee means someone is "travelling away from God"? Do you think that Muslims have taken up Islam because they want to "sin" (as defined by the LDS Church)?

 

[Link]

This verse is arguing why God would send Messengers though. If there is a God, he would not leave us to go anywhere the chaos takes us but want us to go to straight to him, do you agree?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

This verse is arguing why God would send Messengers though. If there is a God, he would not leave us to go anywhere the chaos takes us but want us to go to straight to him, do you agree?

This post has too many assumptions for me to be bothered to unpack them all right now.

 

[Aupmanyav]

"If we don't go to the path towards God and light, where are we going?": Choose any path, every one goes to dust.

 

[Link]

"If we don't go to the path towards God and light, where are we going?": Choose any path, every one goes to dust.

Should there be consequences if we turned away from God's light and directed ourselves towards the darkness and lower road?

 

[Aupmanyav]

The path differs according to the crematorium ground or the graveyard. The process may differ but the result is the same - one goes to dust.

 

[Trailblazer]

I think you know my answer why. There is no god to blame, suffering is a consequence of life.

If there is no God that is true. Often I wish I could believe that.

 

[Trailblazer]

Should there be consequences if we turned away from God's light and directed ourselves towards the darkness and lower road?

Yes, because all actions have consequences.

 

[ChristineM]

If there is no God that is true. Often I wish I could believe that.

Its easy.

 

[Trailblazer]

This illustrates how religious concepts are very difficult to talk about as if real. This includes talking about a god as if it's real. It's one thing for a theist to argue for why they think their god exists, or a soul exists, etc. But when these ideas are referred to as if it's a given they are real and factual, it is not honest. To my mind it borders on deliberately deceptive.

They are as real to me as anything in the material world, so that is why I talk about them as if they are real, but I do not expect others to believe they are real. I never claimed they are factual so I am not trying to deceive anyone.

Right, so believers shouldn't continue on as if their belief is reasonable. They should acknowledge their belief is weak and the ideas assumed true for their own meaning in life.

The word reasonable is not useful because what is reasonable to some people is unreasonable to others. My belief is not weak and my ideas are not assumed; they are believed based upon my religion.

I think you are more dependent than you think. You admit that the basis for you deciding a God exists has a low standard compared to objective thinkers who have no ulterior motive. So you're believing for a reason OTHER than reason and truth.

From my perspective, the basis for me believing that a God exists has a high standard, and I have no ulterior motive because I do not even want to believe in God. I believe because if the evidence that indicates that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, thus God must exist.

Given the lack of evidence you cite, and that you acknowledge objective thinkers can't find adequate basis to decide a God exists or is even plausible, you have some other motive to decide a God exists, and that is assumption. Yes you do believe, you have decided a God exists and can't provide adequate reason for it. When you and other theists talk about the effects of belief or a God then you are assuming it's true for the sake of argument.

I have provided my reasons for believing God exists time and again on this forum, but if you don't like my reasons what am I supposed to do? I will not lie and say I have reasons other than the reasons I have. Obviously my reasons to believe in God would not constitute reasons for you or other atheists to believe in God because we are separate people; so what makes sense to you will not make sense to me or vice versa.

This comment illustrates how you wonk to manipulate your own thinking about this idea so you can be intellectually honest in one way, but not for the sake of what you find meaningful. That must create a lot of inner conflict whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

I have no inner conflict regarding whether God exists or not, the only conflict I have is regarding certain of God's alleged qualities.

What I said is logically valid: God cannot be proven as a fact, yet that has no bearing on whether God exists as or not, since proof is not what makes God exist; God either exists or not.

To add to that, God could exist without providing any evidence of His existence at all (although that is not what happened since the Messengers of God are the evidence).

As an analogy, if a man committed a murder it was committed even if no evidence of that murder can ever be found. The man who committed the murder can never be found guilty because there is no evidence that can be found but that man is still guilty because that is the reality, even though no evidence can be found.

Similarly, if God exists God exists, and that is the reality, in spite of the fact that atheists cannot find any evidence that proves that to their satisfaction.

 

[Trailblazer]

How does "it's more complicated" imply "we shouldn't bother"?

I never said that we shouldn't bother, but once we have done all we can do, just as with trying to save a physical body, we have to "call it."

Sure... so no different than, say, sales or teaching, both things that human beings do.

And not all people will ever buy the product one is selling. If they are in the market for that product and they like the product we are selling they might buy it.

...because the issue hasn't been important enough for you to learn about what worked for others.

I already know what worked for others because often they talk about it and explain it. However, what worked for believers won't work for atheists because they do not accept our reasons for believing.

Any sound argument for God.

I don't have an argument for God because God cannot be proven to exist with an argument.....
I have given my reasons for believing in God time and again on this forum but they have thus far been rejected by atheists. They want objective evidence of God but God can never be proven objectively because God is not a material being. The only objective evidence for God is the Messengers of God.

 

[Trailblazer]

Its easy.

It's no easier than for you to believe in God.

 

[Truthseeker]

When you say those who are more evolved spiritually will be grateful that implies that the people who are not grateful are not evolved spiritually. That is very judgmental.

I don't think I was being judgmental, though you are interpreting it that way. I was trying to say you love God if you suffer patiently, that is a sign of love as Baha'u'llah says, and that therefore you are safe and secure if you suffer patiently. After that you have the potential to go to a higher plane. How is that judgmental? What's going on here?

Who is turning away? How can someone turn away from something that is not even there?
Where is God's love? Nowhere except in your imagination.

I'm not accusing you of anything! Calm down! I was just trying to help.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think I was being judgmental, though you are interpreting it that way. I was trying to say you love God if you suffer patiently, that is a sign of love as Baha'u'llah says, and that therefore you are safe and secure if you suffer patiently. After that you have the potential to go to a higher plane. How is that judgmental? What's going on here?

I was not saying that YOU are judgmental, I was saying that is a judgmental belief. Clearly, if those who are "more evolved spiritually" will be grateful for their suffering that implies that the people who are not grateful for their suffering are not evolved spiritually, but maybe someday they will be as you said. You are just saying what you believe that is in the Baha'i Writings. It is not your fault the Baha'i writings are judgmental, but clearly they are. If calling some people holy souls and calling others cowards is not judgmental nothing ever was. By raising people up they are lowering other people down, people who cannot "measure up" to the ridiculous Baha'i standards. I am tired of them Duane, I am tired of them. No other religion has such standards or expectations. Not only do we have to "serve the Cause" we have to have a certain attitude towards God, even if we do not have it.

"you love God if you suffer patiently, that is a sign of love as Baha'u'llah says,"

I do suffer patiently but not because I love God, so what does that say? It says you cannot interpret these Hidden Words so literally, to mean that everyone who suffers patiently loves God. There are other reasons why a person might suffer patiently, because they have learned to be patient or because they value patience, for example.

I'm not accusing you of anything! Calm down! I was just trying to help.

I did not say that you were accusing me of anything. I know you were just trying to help.
You believe in God's Love, I don't. I cannot believe something exists just because it is written in a book.

I said:
Who is turning away? How can someone turn away from something that is not even there?
Where is God's love? Nowhere except in your imagination.

 

[Truthseeker]

I do suffer patiently but not because I love God, so what does that say? It says you cannot interpret these Hidden Words so literally, to mean that everyone who suffers patiently loves God. There are other reasons why a person might suffer patiently, because they have learned to be patient or because they value patience, for example.

I have been unable to unravel this problem tonight, but this is too difficult tonight. Fortitude is also mentioned in that Hidden Word, not just patience, for example, so maybe tomorrow I'll have answer. I don't have the patience tonight.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have been unable to unravel this problem tonight, but this is too difficult tonight. Fortitude is also mentioned in that Hidden Word, not just patience, for example, so maybe tomorrow I'll have answer. I don't have the patience tonight.

No problem, because after all the posts I have answered today and the posts I still have to answer, it would be best if I got no more posts tonight.

 

[ChristineM]

It's no easier than for you to believe in God.

Given the way the evidence lies when examined honestly I would thonk it very easy

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

فَأَيْنَ تَذْهَبُونَ

If we don't go to the path towards God and light, where are we going?

The path of enlightment, is superior to the "path of light".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

absolutely, that’s why I said our “own path”

our path will always lead to heartache

Perhaps the problem was rather with your own personal path?

What gives you the right to generalize your own experience and think you can extrapolate that to all individuals?

There are 7 billion of us. I don't think you can speak for all of us.