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Solar is now the cheapest form of energy

exchemist

Veteran Member
Hydro power is cheaper than solar for both production and environmental costs.
Do you have evidence for that assertion? I'm sure we can all have amateur opinions, but often when you see a real analysis, the results prove to be counterintuitive.

Who has made a comparison of the environmental costs of solar and hydro, where can this be found and what does it say?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
interesting snippet.....
solar thermodynamic heating systems do not require direct sunlight
and can produce heat no matter what the weather conditions, come sun, rain, cloud or night, 365 days a year.
Solar thermodynamic panels can even produce heat and hot water in winter, at night
– although it takes a little longer to heat the water.
How does solar heating at nite work?

Btw, I'm installing solar air heating in my shop.
Haven't figured out how to do it for me hovel yet.
(Too many trees in the way, & those things are staying.)
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
How does solar heating at nite work?

Btw, I'm installing solar air heating in my shop.
Haven't figured out how to do it for me hovel yet.
(Too many trees in the way, & those things are staying.)
it makes use of the ambient environmental temperature differences and works a clever engineering exploit which a crafty fellow like you may appreciate. [and may keep the cockles warm with when it gets nippy]

here is a snippet that describes the process:

Working like a refrigerator in reverse, an eco-friendly refrigerant with good thermodynamic properties, such as a R-407 mix, is pumped through the thermal absorber, called a collector, as a cold pressurized liquid. As it circulates inside the collector it absorbs heat energy from the surrounding atmosphere that has warmed the collector plate and as the temperature of the refrigerant liquid increases, it vaporizes changing the refrigerant fluid into a gas.


When the gas leaves the collector plate it is very warm but the gas passes through a compressor and is heated further by the action of the compressor, just like in a heat pump. As it circulates around the system, the now hot gas flows through a heat exchanger coil, called a thermodynamic block, inside the water cylinder were the heat is transferred into the water via the heat exchanger.


As the gas transfers its heat to the water, it cools reverting back to a liquid state and flows back to the solar panel were the process is repeated. So the cycle of the refrigerant is to enter the solar collector as a cold liquid and exit as a gas, pass through a compressor to concentrate the heat and pressure in the gas, just like in a heat pump, and then pass it through a heat exchanger which extracts the heat to heat water as the refrigerant returns back to a liquid.


Generally the refrigerant is continually circulated with the aid of the compressor pump and an external electrical source to keep the temperature difference almost constant during both the heat absorption (evaporation) and release (condensation) process helping to improve system efficiency.

Using a refrigerant gas in the solar collectors instead of water is the secret to the success of the solar thermodynamic heating system. The theory is that this makes it more efficient than traditional solar thermal panels, particularly when there is no direct sunlight allowing for a far higher efficiency at a much lower ambient temperature than conventional water filled solar panels.


But the biggest advantage of a solar thermodynamic heating system is that unlike traditional solar collectors which must be mounted on a roof in direct line of sight of the suns energy, thermodynamic solar collectors can be mounted anywhere, vertically or horizontally, in or out of the shade as its the surrounding ambient temperature they need and not direct sunlight. Also, as the thermodynamic solar collectors are full of a refrigerant gas and not water, they also weigh a lot less too.


As well as being able to produce hot water at up to 50oC in the shade with a very high efficiency and low energy consumption, solar hydrodynamic heating systems are now being used for underfloor heating and radiator systems in many new homes as they are capable of extracting sufficient warmth from the atmosphere to heat a building to a comfortable temperature even on the coldest of winter days. Thermodynamic solar panels can even be used to heat your swimming pool all year around.


Solar thermodynamic heating is a new and exciting way of producing free and clean hot water without the need of large, bulky or heavy roof mounted flat plate solar panels which may freeze in winter. Solar thermodynamic heating panels are gaining popularity today since many people are making a concerted effort to go “green” in order to save money and the environment.


These solar thermal heating systems are an important use of solar energy and the installation of this type of heating system allows people living in colder northern climates to benefit from the energy contained within the outside ambient air all year around. Then an energy revolution is under way in how we heat our water and solar thermodynamic heating is becoming a major player thanks to its special heat pump and simple system design.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
it makes use of the ambient environmental temperature differences and works a clever engineering exploit which a crafty fellow like you may appreciate. [and may keep the cockles warm with when it gets nippy]

here is a snippet that describes the process:

Working like a refrigerator in reverse, an eco-friendly refrigerant with good thermodynamic properties, such as a R-407 mix, is pumped through the thermal absorber, called a collector, as a cold pressurized liquid. As it circulates inside the collector it absorbs heat energy from the surrounding atmosphere that has warmed the collector plate and as the temperature of the refrigerant liquid increases, it vaporizes changing the refrigerant fluid into a gas.


When the gas leaves the collector plate it is very warm but the gas passes through a compressor and is heated further by the action of the compressor, just like in a heat pump. As it circulates around the system, the now hot gas flows through a heat exchanger coil, called a thermodynamic block, inside the water cylinder were the heat is transferred into the water via the heat exchanger.


As the gas transfers its heat to the water, it cools reverting back to a liquid state and flows back to the solar panel were the process is repeated. So the cycle of the refrigerant is to enter the solar collector as a cold liquid and exit as a gas, pass through a compressor to concentrate the heat and pressure in the gas, just like in a heat pump, and then pass it through a heat exchanger which extracts the heat to heat water as the refrigerant returns back to a liquid.


Generally the refrigerant is continually circulated with the aid of the compressor pump and an external electrical source to keep the temperature difference almost constant during both the heat absorption (evaporation) and release (condensation) process helping to improve system efficiency.

Using a refrigerant gas in the solar collectors instead of water is the secret to the success of the solar thermodynamic heating system. The theory is that this makes it more efficient than traditional solar thermal panels, particularly when there is no direct sunlight allowing for a far higher efficiency at a much lower ambient temperature than conventional water filled solar panels.


But the biggest advantage of a solar thermodynamic heating system is that unlike traditional solar collectors which must be mounted on a roof in direct line of sight of the suns energy, thermodynamic solar collectors can be mounted anywhere, vertically or horizontally, in or out of the shade as its the surrounding ambient temperature they need and not direct sunlight. Also, as the thermodynamic solar collectors are full of a refrigerant gas and not water, they also weigh a lot less too.


As well as being able to produce hot water at up to 50oC in the shade with a very high efficiency and low energy consumption, solar hydrodynamic heating systems are now being used for underfloor heating and radiator systems in many new homes as they are capable of extracting sufficient warmth from the atmosphere to heat a building to a comfortable temperature even on the coldest of winter days. Thermodynamic solar panels can even be used to heat your swimming pool all year around.


Solar thermodynamic heating is a new and exciting way of producing free and clean hot water without the need of large, bulky or heavy roof mounted flat plate solar panels which may freeze in winter. Solar thermodynamic heating panels are gaining popularity today since many people are making a concerted effort to go “green” in order to save money and the environment.


These solar thermal heating systems are an important use of solar energy and the installation of this type of heating system allows people living in colder northern climates to benefit from the energy contained within the outside ambient air all year around. Then an energy revolution is under way in how we heat our water and solar thermodynamic heating is becoming a major player thanks to its special heat pump and simple system design.
The term, "thermodyamic", seems superfluous.
Everything involving heat transfer is thermodynamic.
This systems sounds like nothing more than a variety
of systems using a conventional heat pump integrated
sometimes with solar panels &/or a heat sink.
Sounds workable. Any such products on the market?
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
climate battery.jpeg
Also, add a climate battery to the mix for the building envelope/structure.

It has been studied extensively in cold climates and the number of 70% energy saving to heat and cool the building over its entire lifespan is extremely enticing and attractive.

yes, it does take slightly higher initial input costs, yet these have been crunched and still it is net positive in a relatively short time....and because there are many ways to achieve this effect, I expect that as more innovative folks tackle this method, the more innovative ways to do it will be explored and eventually the costs and the efforts will be reduced even more....just takes effort and doing.
hope this gives you a few useful ideas to keep warm m8:)
:hugehug:
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
The term, "thermodyamic", seems superfluous.
Everything involving heat transfer is thermodynamic.
This systems sounds like nothing more than a variety
of systems using a conventional heat pump integrated
sometimes with solar panels &/or a heat sink.
Sounds workable. Any such products on the market?
yes, a few, I was looking into local distribution/installation..... the costs were still a little high back when I was looking, but it has been close to a decade so I expect if I looked now there would be more options......once I get some surplus cash I will be acquiring some of these.
you can look to see what you think is best, I am hesitant to recommend, [bad form]
 

MNoBody

Well-Known Member
The term, "thermodyamic", seems superfluous.
Everything involving heat transfer is thermodynamic.
This systems sounds like nothing more than a variety
of systems using a conventional heat pump integrated
sometimes with solar panels &/or a heat sink.
Sounds workable. Any such products on the market?
the term is superfluous, but that is the key words to find it on google, go figure.
["solar thermodynamic heating system" ]
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
yes, a few, I was looking into local distribution/installation..... the costs were still a little high back when I was looking, but it has been close to a decade so I expect if I looked now there would be more options......once I get some surplus cash I will be acquiring some of these.
you can look to see what you think is best, I am hesitant to recommend, [bad form]
I'm finding that ordinary photovoltaics & air solar heating are cost effective.
 
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