Solar is now the cheapest form of energy

[exchemist]

The facts are that the number of coal plants in the U.S. are going down and the number in China are still increasing.

True, but why does that mean I need to tell them it's a bad idea?

See post 40 for more insight into the reasons for what we are seeing in China.

 

[Mindmaster]

My solar panels are going on existing buildings.

That's about the only thing you can do, but there becomes an another obstacle in that the power use of our buildings is just going to keep going up. All we gotta do is have the quantum type personal computer occur (coming soon) and computers will use power like the 1980s again, but nothing else will even come close to them, lol. It's only a matter of time before the old solar tech is basically a joke.

But, in the meanwhile the efficiency trend does make it OK to deal with some of these older panels but I know that YMMV on the idea.

 

[Shaul]

True, but why does that mean I need to tell them it's a bad idea?

See post 40 for more insight into the reasons for what we are seeing in China.

Here’s a reason, China uses nine times the coal that the U.S. does. The U.S. is already moving to eliminate its use of coal while China is still massively increasing its use. Since the U.S. has already gotten the message and China is ignoring it, they need to hear it, not us.

 

[exchemist]

Here’s a reason, China uses nine times the coal that the U.S. does. The U.S. is already moving to eliminate its use of coal while China is still massively increasing its use. Since the U.S. has already gotten the message and China is ignoring it, they need to hear it, not us.

Why do you assume they have not heard it? Please read my post 40 before replying.

 

[Tambourine]

The U.S. plants were built before we knew better. The Chinese are doing it now despite knowing better. Plus the U.S. is replacing its coal plants. So, yes, yes indeed, the U.S. approach is far better than China’s. Far better.

I thought people voted for Trump because he specifically wanted to not get rid of the old coal plants?

 

[Tambourine]

That’s not true. Hydroelectric is cheaper according to the U.S. Department of Energy. Hydro Power Vs. Solar Power Advantages

Hydro power carries enormous external environmental costs as artificially dammed lakes and rivers tend to disprupt countries' existing hydrogeography and massively alter existing ecosystems. You can look all over the world for evidence of this, from the US to China to North Africa to Europe.

 

[exchemist]

Hydro power carries enormous external environmental costs as artificially dammed lakes and rivers tend to disprupt countries' existing hydrogeography and massively alter existing ecosystems. You can look all over the world for evidence of this, from the US to China to North Africa to Europe.

Yes the link @Shaul provided refers specifically to production costs only.

So it is in fact irrelevant to the point you were making, which was about total costs including externals ones such as environmental.

 

[Tambourine]

I think you may need to unpack that a bit. There are externalised costs for solar too, surely? Also, what sort of solar would have been feasible before the advent of photovoltaics?

First of all, "solar power" isn't just photovoltaics. Of course the latter carry external costs as well, and these are a definite problem that is frequently overlooked (for example, the rare earths needed for modern photovoltaics are a prime motivator for conflict in Central Africa).

That said, when it comes to sheer environmental and economic cost I would argue they still outcompete fossil fuel power, which not only causes local environmental issues and enormous economic costs in terms of required regulation, cleaning etc., but also directly contribute to global warming.

Yes the link @Shaul provided refers specifically to production costs only.

So it is in fact irrelevant to the point you were making, which was about total costs including externals ones such as environmental.

Yes, exactly, thank you. This is why I think it's problematic to compare relative costs, what we think of as "costs" is only a fraction of what we, both individually and as a society, actually "pay" for in the long run. It is of course going to be very hard to come up with a model that factors in all these things.

I used to actually be an enormous fan of hydro power until I started to realize the damage it causes.

 

[Heyo]

Yes. It seems a pity, given that the sun's surface is at 5000K, that one chooses a working fluid that even under supercritical temperatures won't be above 400C or so at the high temperature end of the cycle. But water does have other advantages as a working fluid.

It's not so much about the working fluid (though water has ideal properties for that as well) but more about the condensation phase of the cycle. You have to cool your working fluid down into liquid state to complete the cycle. That is usually done by evaporating water - which you don't have to spare in the desert.

 

[Tambourine]

Here’s a reason, China uses nine times the coal that the U.S. does. The U.S. is already moving to eliminate its use of coal while China is still massively increasing its use. Since the U.S. has already gotten the message and China is ignoring it, they need to hear it, not us.

Unlike China, the US also uses enormous amounts of oil and gas, with crude oil and gas production actually rising in 2020 despite a global pandemic, and isn't even going to discuss reducing that need in any shape or form.

 

[exchemist]

It's not so much about the working fluid (though water has ideal properties for that as well) but more about the condensation phase of the cycle. You have to cool your working fluid down into liquid state to complete the cycle. That is usually done by evaporating water - which you don't have to spare in the desert.

Yes indeed. Air cooling would require enormous radiators.

 

[Revoltingest]

That's about the only thing you can do, but there becomes an another obstacle in that the power use of our buildings is just going to keep going up. All we gotta do is have the quantum type personal computer occur (coming soon) and computers will use power like the 1980s again, but nothing else will even come close to them, lol. It's only a matter of time before the old solar tech is basically a joke.

But, in the meanwhile the efficiency trend does make it OK to deal with some of these older panels but I know that YMMV on the idea.

My power usage has declined with the advent of
LED lighting & more efficient air conditioning.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I often wondered why batteries can't last longer. Back in the 80s, I had a walkman, and I was having to buy batteries almost every other week. Now, if I fail to plug in my cellphone for even one day, the battery will die. It's even worse with my laptop; it goes dead after a few hours without plugging it in.

Rechargeable batteries eventually die. My old phone was going through its terminal phase when I replaced it. I don't use it much but it still would not hold a charge for a day. Some of the apps were randomly turning on and I had to remove a security device that locked my out of some of my apps. I bought a new one finally and I currently do not even use a fifth of a charge a day.

Though I have heard that new rechargeable batteries will have a longer life too:

Future batteries, coming soon: Charge in seconds, last months and power over the air

 

[Stevicus]

...

Hey, long time no see. Welcome back

 

[Shaul]

Hydro power carries enormous external environmental costs as artificially dammed lakes and rivers tend to disprupt countries' existing hydrogeography and massively alter existing ecosystems. You can look all over the world for evidence of this, from the US to China to North Africa to Europe.

You assumed hydro power requires dams and other “enormous external environmental costs”. There is no such costs innate about hydro power per se. On the other hand solar power typically require electric components that are environmentally costly to manufacture.

 

[Shaul]

Yes the link @Shaul provided refers specifically to production costs only.

So it is in fact irrelevant to the point you were making, which was about total costs including externals ones such as environmental.

Hydro power is cheaper than solar for both production and environmental costs.

 

[Shaul]

Unlike China, the US also uses enormous amounts of oil and gas, with crude oil and gas production actually rising in 2020 despite a global pandemic, and isn't even going to discuss reducing that need in any shape or form.

Unlike China, U.S. total and per capita emissions of carbon have been falling. China’s keep rising. So, again, looks like China is the country that needs to heed the word about carbon emissions. The U.S. is doing what it should.

 

[MNoBody]

interesting snippet.....
solar thermodynamic heating systems do not require direct sunlight
and can produce heat no matter what the weather conditions, come sun, rain, cloud or night, 365 days a year.
Solar thermodynamic panels can even produce heat and hot water in winter, at night
– although it takes a little longer to heat the water.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Hydro power is cheaper than solar for both production and environmental costs.

But not available everywhere. For example there is not much available in hydropower in the Fargo North Dakota region. Topographic maps often do not have even a five foot elevation line running through them. Elevations at the center of sections will often vary by a foot or less.

Solar is available anywhere that the sun shines. And wind turbines work wherever the wind blows.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Unlike China, U.S. total and per capita emissions of carbon have been falling. China’s keep rising. So, again, looks like China is the country that needs to heed the word about carbon emissions. The U.S. is doing what it should.

To be fair in many ways China is still a developing nation. They have not been ignoring green energy. In fact the last time I checked they are leading in developing many aspects of solar power and they currently have the world's second largest single solar power plant:

China unveils world’s second largest solar power plant - SupChina.

Though I do feel pessimistic at times stories like this tell me that not all of us are ignoring the ills that beset this world.