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Some more copypasting...

Death

Member
http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/main.htm#islam

I see our current situation as being similar to the conflict between Islamicists and Western culture. Religious fundamentalists, whether Christian or Islamic, are at odds with the values of secular humanism, values such as freedom of worship, freedom of speech, equality among men and women, and the principle that governments derive their just powers from the consent of the governed, rather than from God. "Liberal" religious groups accept and embrace these secular values, but fundamentalist groups do not.

Thus we see fundamentalist Christians and fundamentalist Muslims saying more or less the same thing -- That Western civilization, as reflected by secular humanist, materialist values, are inherently evil and Satanic. These fundamentalists, in turn, inspire the militant radicals to such acts as the bombing of abortion clinics, the White Christian" neo-Nazi groups, the Nation of Islam - style racism, and the destruction of the World Trade Center.

Thus Jimmy Swaggart, the Million Man March, the Promise Keepers, and Osama bin Laden are essentially fighting together in a war against Western secular humanism.

The site has many other things which you should look into, this is just the introduction. Needless to say, it's quite thorough.
 

Rex

Founder
What does this have to do with Islam?

A comparison to Jimmy Swaggart and the Million Man March seems very irrelevant to me.

I would appreciate it if you would change the title of this thread also, it seems a little innappropriate
 

Death

Member
Rex_Admin said:
What does this have to do with Islam?

A comparison to Jimmy Swaggart and the Million Man March seems very irrelevant to me.

I would appreciate it if you would change the title of this thread also, it seems a little innappropriate

Done, anyway, some parts of the site regards islamic law vs secularism:

Concept of "Islamic State"

"An Islamic state is essentially an ideological state, and is thus radically different from a national state." This statement made by Mawdudi lays the basic foundation for the political, economical, social, and religious system of all Islamic countries which impose the Islamic law. This ideological system intentionally discriminates between people according to their religious affiliations. Mawdudi, a prominent Pakistani Muslim scholar, summarizes the basic differences between Islamic and secular states as follows:

* 1) An Islamic state is ideological. People who reside in it are divided into Muslims, who believe in its ideology and non-Muslims who do not believe.

* 2) Responsibility for policy and administration of such a state "should rest primarily with those who believe in the Islamic ideology." Non-Muslims, therefore, cannot be asked to undertake or be entrusted with the responsibility of policymaking.

* 3) An Islamic state is bound to distinguish (i.e. discriminates) between Muslims and non-Muslims. However the Islamic law "Shari`a" guarantees to non-Muslims "certain specifically stated rights beyond which they are not permitted to meddle in the affairs of the state because they do not subscribe to its ideology." Once they embrace the Islamic faith, they "become equal participants in all matters concerning the state and the government."

The above view is the representative of the Hanifites, one of the four Islamic schools of jurisprudence. The other three schools are the Malikites, the Hanbilites (the strictest and the most fundamentalist of all), and the Shafi`ites. All four schools agree dogmatically on the basic creeds of Islam but differ in their interpretations of Islamic law which is derived from four sources:

* a) Qur'an (read or recite): The sacred book of Muslim community containing direct quotes from Allah as allegedly dictated by Gabriel.

* b) Hadith (narrative): The collections of Islamic traditions including sayings and deeds of Muhammad as heard by his contemporaries, first, second, and third hand.

* c) Al-Qiyas (analogy or comparison): The legal decision drawn by Islamic Jurists based on precedent cases.
* d) Ijma' (consensus): The interpretations of Islamic laws handed down by the consensus of reputed Muslim scholars in a certain country.

Textual laws prescribed in the Qur'an are few. The door is left wide open for prominent scholars versed in the Qur'an, the Hadith, and other Islamic discipline to present their Fatwa (legal opinion) as we shall see later.

In his book Shari`ah: The Islamic Law, Doi remarks, "The punishment by death in the case of Apostasy has been unanimously agreed upon by all the four schools of Islamic jurisprudence."

A non-Muslim wishing to become a Muslim is encouraged to do so and anyone, even a father or a mother, who attempts to stop him, may be punished. However, anyone who makes an effort to proselytize a Muslim to any other faith may face punishment.

Marriage and Children

A Muslim male can marry a Zimmi girl, but a Zimmi man is not allowed to marry a Muslim girl. If a woman embraces Islam and wants to get married, her non-Muslim father does not have the authority to give her away to her bridegroom. She must be given away by a Muslim guardian.

If one parent is a Muslim, children must be raised as Muslims. If the father is a Zimmi and his wife converts to Islam, she must get a divorce; then she will have the right of custody of her child. Some fundamentalist schools indicate that a Muslim husband has the right to confine his Zimmi wife to her home and restrain her from going to her own house of worship.

Capital Punishment

The Hanifites believe that both Zimmis and Muslims must suffer the same Penalty for similar crimes. If a Muslim kills a Zimmi intentionally, he must be killed in return. The same applies to a Christian who kills a Muslim. But other schools of Law have different interpretations of Islamic law. The Shafi`ites declare that a Muslim who assassinates a Zimmi must not be killed, because it is not reasonable to equate a Muslim with a polytheist (Mushrik). In such a case, blood price must be paid. The penalty depends on the school of law adopted by the particular Islamic country where the crime or offense is committed. This illustrates the implication of different interpretations of the Islamic law based on the Hadith.

Each school attempts to document its legal opinion by referring to the Hadith or to an incident experienced by the Prophet or the "rightly guided" Caliphs.
 
Islamic Extremism May Save Western Civilization

By Mark Glenn:

Interesting perspective from a Christian writer and commentator


It would shock and probably offend most Americans to learn the truth that the reason they are here, their power, their affluence and position in the world is directly because of the Islamic religion and the Arab culture. That’s right, the very "ragheads" and "Hajis" (as Limbaugh, Liddy, and some of the others often call them) that the US is now fighting are directly responsible for the preeminence and power of not just the United States, but of the entire Western world in general.

Besides the fact that Western Civilization began in the area of the Fertile Crescent, also known as Mesopotamia (present day Iraq), it is as well an historical fact beyond dispute that it was the learning and sophistication of the Arab culture that led to many of the scientific developments that would later make Europe the cradle of science, learning, and advancement. After the institutionalization of the Islamic religion throughout the Mediterranean region, the extent of Arab learning and culture was such that European Kings, Christian Kings, would send their sons and daughters to be educated in Moslem places such as Cordova and Toledo. Christian Crusaders coming back from the Middle East told of the richness of Arab culture, leading to Europeans’ desire for Arab goods, which in turn led to trade routes between Europe and the Middle East. The resulting wealth created from that trade with the Arabs led to the ascendancy of power for European city-states such as Venice and Florence, which became the birthplaces of the Renaissance in Europe. Arab advancements in navigation, from the Astrolabe to the compass to the fast sailing ship known as the Caravel made possible the arrival in the New World of the Europeans. Let’s not forget, Spain and Portugal, those two powers who held a virtual monopoly on exploration in the New World for quite a while, were, for 700 years, held by the Arabs.

What will gall Americans even more, especially those who call themselves Christian, is the idea that it may be the Arab and Muslim culture that will be not only the birthplace of Western Civilization, but the savior of it as well.

As evidenced by the nightly news right now, there is a war going on. Superficially, it is about things like "terrorism" and "freedom." There are some who go a step further and blame oil and banking, not to mention "lebensraum" for Israel. And while all these things do play a part, some greater than others, the real war here is between two world views.

During the debates that took place in the UN between the internationalist cabal led by France, Germany, Russia, Belgium, and China on one side and the nationalists led by the United States, Great Britain, (and behind the scenes, Israel,) there was this "tossing around" of phrases in coded language. The nationalist crowd, represented in the debates by Colin Powell, spoke of "Old Europe" in a castigating attempt to portray those opposing the war against Iraq as somehow backwards in their thinking, as opposed to those in the New World, who were enlightened and were here to save all humanity against dangerous men and dangerous ideas. And although we know that the reasons for the internationalist crowd opposing the war against Iraq had little to do with anything other than protecting their own business interests as well as staving off US hegemony in the world in favor of internationalist hegemony, it did illustrate that there is, at least on the part of the "coalition of the willing" a desire to do away with that ethos held by the Old World (meaning the Middle-East) that serves as an obstacle in building that New World Order that Bush the Elder discussed more than a decade ago, even if it means seeing the US leading it rather than the UN.

To the "New World," and by default the New World Order, the Arab/Muslim world is backwards in its values. It prohibits abortion and birth control. They have large families, as opposed to the West, where the average family has only 2 children. It prohibits usury banking, to which the West credits its own economic superiority. Theirs is a "closed" society (read into this no sodomy, pornography, gay lifestyle, et al) Theirs is a "cruel" society (read into this-they do not have people on death row for 20 years) And finally, they will not play the game the way the market wants it played, meaning, they want a just price for their only real source of wealth, their oil, instead of giving it away to the West for a fraction of its worth. In other words, the picture that has just been painted here is, the Muslim world is now what the Christian world once was and should be.

One can already hear the roar coming out of the mouths of many who have not been thinking of this in a critical way, particularly those well-paid mouthpieces on TV and radio masquerading themselves as Christians. "The religion of Mohammed is better than the religion of Jesus Christ?!" No, rather, what is meant here is that the religion of Islam resembles Christianity more than does the Christianity of the West today, because the Christianity of the West today isn’t Christianity at all, but a watered-down amalgamation of New Ageism mixed with certain common spiritual attributes that, although called Christian, can be found in almost every known religion. Through decades of destructive influence and propaganda through media and academia, mainstream Christianity in the West has been reduced to one remaining commandment, vague and hard to pin-point which is "be nice."

The fact of the matter is, putting aside all the other reasons surrounding this war that were enumerated at the beginning of this essay, what exists in the Middle East, or in The Old World, as some would call it, is a culture that is still devoted to principles concerning basic moral values, values that have not yet surrendered to the corrupting influence of Western media or Western money. Within the last 50 years, every culture has fallen before this corrupting power that seeks to enslave all men in such a way that the individual is reduced to the value of what he produces and what he consumes, and in pursuit of that method, the individuals behind this program have quietly but decisively removed every obstacle in their way, be it religion, culture, morals, tradition, or world view, through the methods of media, academia, and finance; that is, except the culture encapsulated in the Islamic/Arabic World.

By the description "Arabic/Islamic," it should not be understood as solely a "Muslim" thing. The culture existing in the Arab world is held by both Christian and Muslim alike. There are millions of Christians, who have in essence the same culture with their Muslim counterparts in much the same way as most Americans, regardless of religion, have the same culture. It is those Christians and Muslims alike who reject these "modern" notions such as abortion, birth control, sodomy, pornography, usury banking, and "market value" of services and resources. They still view the family, the traditional family, with all its traditional roles, as the most important building block of their society, and they take very seriously anything that threatens it. They recognize the value of their children, and how dangerous the moral relativism of the West has become, threatening the stability of society directly. They recognize that if their children and society as a whole are subjected to ideas that promote moral decay for an extended period of time, what will eventually and unavoidably be produced is national decay.

One should consider the fact that the New World Order has used and is using all its resources and influence to emasculate and neutralize all opposition to its agenda in the world. The Catholic Church, once a political power to be feared by presidents and prime ministers the world over, has been rendered obsolete. Through mouthpieces such as John Paul II, the New World Order has been openly embraced, and if at times the church gets a little rambunctious and steps out of line, well, the NWO crowd merely runs new stories revealing allegations of pedophilia and abuse. The mainstream Protestant groups, led by influential people on the television and radio, may talk of the dangers of the NWO and the secularization of the West, yet still openly embrace Bush when he pushes through various pieces of legislation that rob us of our freedoms under the guise of protection from terrorism, as well as the practice of conveniently "forgetting" about Bush’s caving in to the pro-abortion lobby in various instances. So, with the exception of a few pockets of token resistance, there is no one left standing in the way of the NWO except the Arab/Muslim World.

If by some miracle the Arab/Muslim world is victorious against this onslaught, and the secular/atheistic influence of the NWO agenda is reduced to such a level as to allow the Christian West to regain its foothold where it once stood, it will be necessary to credit the religion of Islam and the Arab world for not buckling under in the face of extermination. And it will be we, the Christian West and Western Civilization, who will be the beneficiaries of "Islamic Extremism."

Mark Glenn is an American and former high school teacher turned writer / commentator. He contributed above article to Media Monitors Network (MMN).

© 2003 Mark Glenn
 

Death

Member
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

1)That has nothing to do with anything.
2)The writer is a right wing fundie NUT.
3) Any mention of the vast zionist conspiracy of nations and the NWO is pure fundie tinfoil hat nonsense.
 
This is ISLAM section, if you are here to bash Islam, then you are in the wrong place mate.....

I urge the admins to take decisive action against anyone who try to bash or discredit Islam or any faith for that matter.

You are an athiest Mr death, so what the hell are you doing in ISLAM section ?????
 

Rex

Founder
The Shield of Islam said:
This is ISLAM section, if you are here to bash Islam, then you are in the wrong place mate.....

I urge the admins to take decisive action against anyone who try to bash or discredit Islam or any faith for that matter.

You are an athiest Mr death, so what the hell are you doing in ISLAM section ?????

I am now moving this to the debate section.

Death- You need to calm down a notch, hehe.

Shield- He is merely expressing his freedom of speech, there is not much I can do except move this to the debate section b/c that is what it has become.
 

anders

Well-Known Member
Dear Shield,

You and I disagree on a few things. The article which you posted was, however, one I almost wish I could have written myself.

Europeans often think that all culture and learning originated with the Greek, while I find the facts to be that they just took over learníng from the Arabs. One reason that we know so much of ancient Greek philosophers is that their adaption of the Arabic knowledge was preserved in Arabic translations.

Not only Europe and America owe a lot to Arabic learning. The Jewish holy book, the TaNaK (aka Old Testament) is readable today, for those who want to read that violent, inhumane an unethical book, because of Arabic linguists, who researched the forgotten pronunciation of the Ancient Hebrew. The only equals in linguistics of that time were to be found, not in Europe, where very few people knew how to read or write, nor in America, which still had not been stolen from the native Americans, but in India.

As to the lenghty quote posted by Death, it says more of the view of Islam in Pakistan than of any majority view (if such a view is to be found). IMHO, the Pakistani view is not representative, and the way it is carried out in practice seems to me to go against the whole message of the Qur'an, especially when it comes to the treatment of women.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
Anders-

while I agree with you and shield about the vital role the fertaile cresant and Islam played in the creation of modern society, I have to disagree with you on one thing.

Native Americans at the time were just as advanced in most areas as any other culture.
Olmecs, Toltecs, Mayans and later the Aztec all had written language and wrote many books. Most of the books or codexes were distroyed by the spanish when they invaded.
They had advanced architecture, astronomy, math (including the first use of zero, yes older than arabic, though not by a lot.) and surpisingly advanced medicine. The Inca, for example, were able to successfully perform brain surgery for head trauma.

so we wern't all that 'primitive' when you think about it.

wa:-do
 

anders

Well-Known Member
Dear painted wolf,

I did not use the word "primitive". I never do. Especially when it comes to religions. Native "primitive" religions often are at least as advanced as the "high religions". I am very well aware of the high level of Mesoamerican culture. However, I apologize in that my post may be read as if I say that writing came to America with the Europeans.

Unfortunately, there are no traces left of Mayan writing older than ca. 100 CE (although its history must be much older), and writing dates back to thousands of years BCE in Egypt, the Middle East and in China, and to at least 600 BCE in India. But my main point was to stress that Europe owes much, if not most, of its culture to other parts of he world.

I knew of Mayan astronomy, and have seen how it was put to practical use to calculate equinoxes etc. Fantastic!

The zero emerged in India about 400-500 CE. It is possible that it was still older in Mesoamerica, but I have found no date on the Internet. I have seen the Mayan numbers, including the zero, used on road signs in Cancun. Nice touch.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
sorry if I misunderstood, but when you were talking about equils and the Americas not haveing litererature I may have jumped to an inacurate conclusion....
The word primitive was mine but I've often heard it agued that written language is a halmark of 'advanced' civilization....
its a pet peve of mine.... :oops:

Anyway I have found dates for Olmec writeing that go back to 1000 or so bc from La Venta. Wich could logically push writing back further in a more formative state.
A lot of times writing in pre-columbian works was mistaken for simple disign, and is now just being reccognized for what it was.

About zero ... both groups(India and Mayan) came up with it around 4th. century... but from there it gets hard to find spicifics.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/5752/

This link is for a timeline of meso-america.
http://ancienthistory.about.com/gi/...//weber.ucsd.edu/~dkjordan/arch/mexchron.html

wa:-do
 
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