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Some people are preordained to be destroyed by fire on the day of judgement (Revelation 13:8).

XIII-Legion

Member
Revelation 13:8 - and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

So what do you think of this passage?

Do you agree this passage is clear, unequivocal and self-evident to the reader: Certain individuals are preordained to be destroyed by fire on the day of judgement?
 

Sirona

Hindu Wannabe
By law, the Roman Emperors demanded to be worshipped as living gods. Christians refused to do this, in contrast to the members of polytheist religions. Revelation is a book narrating the deliverance of a small Christian minority surrounded by a non-Christian world power (Rome) that persecuted and killed them. :sarcastic
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Revelation 13:8 - and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

So what do you think of this passage?

Do you agree this passage is clear, unequivocal and self-evident to the reader: Certain individuals are preordained to be destroyed by fire on the day of judgement?
I think its a translation issue, one where a Calvinistic predestination theology creeps into how it is translated. If you cross reference other translations it has the lamb slain being the point of the phrase "from the foundation of the earth", not the names of people.


the
ho

Lamb
arnion

who
ho

was

slain
sphazō

from
apo

the

foundation
katabolē

of

the

world
kosmos
 

XIII-Legion

Member
I think its a translation issue, one where a Calvinistic predestination theology creeps into how it is translated.

Calvinism or not, the most crucial thing to consider is one's own relationship with Jesus; this alone, will decide your fate on the day of judgement.

Whether or not predestination is real is beside the point; but what is paramount is your relationship with Jesus.

This alone, will decide whether your name should be in the Book of Life, or otherwise.

Whether you are in good standing with Jesus or not will decide your fate on the day of judgement.

Remember, God does not wish to destroy anyone, unless you leave him with no choice.

 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Calvinism or not, the most crucial thing to consider is one's own relationship with Jesus; this alone, will decide your fate on the day of judgement.

Whether or not predestination is real is beside the point; but what is paramount is your relationship with Jesus.

This alone, will decide whether your name should be in the Book of Life, or otherwise.

Whether you are in good standing with Jesus or not will decide your fate on the day of judgement.

Remember, God does not wish to destroy anyone, unless you leave him with no choice.

This of course completely contradicts the purpose of your thread which brought up predestination. If you are a predestinationist, free will has little to nothing to do with ones salvation. But of course if that was all just a ruse to preach to people about accepting the love of Jesus or be killed by him in fire (a horrid, despicable image of God, I'll add), then you've accomplished exposing that in this post to me.

I have no discomfort or fear in my relationship with God. It sounds as if you do.
 

Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
This of course completely contradicts the purpose of your thread which brought up predestination. If you are a predestinationist, free will has little to nothing to do with ones salvation. But of course if that was all just a ruse to preach to people about accepting the love of Jesus or be killed by him in fire (a horrid, despicable image of God, I'll add), then you've accomplished exposing that in this post to me.

I have no discomfort or fear in my relationship with God. It sounds as if you do.


"Blessed is the man who fears God"?
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Blessed is the man who fears God"?
"Reveres", is the better translated word than "fear" in the sense of terrified. I have Peace through knowledge of the heart, as opposed to fear generated by the ungrounded, unestablished mind.
 

Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
"Reveres", is the better translated word than "fear" in the sense of terrified. I have Peace through knowledge of the heart, as opposed to fear generated by the ungrounded, unestablished mind.

OoOo me likey good sir. So, upon the journey you took that inevitably gave you knowledge of the heart, I would assume at some point you did fear God, No?
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
OoOo me likey good sir. So, upon the journey you took that inevitably gave you knowledge of the heart, I would assume at some point you did fear God, No?
If you mean was I phobic, frightened, worried, etc.? Yes, but only because of what people were telling me about their ideas of God, not what my heart was saying. The problem was I didn't know yet how to trust my heart or listen to it. I was full of doubt. And so their anxieties became mine, as they quoted the Bible seen through their eyes of anxiousness. "Better mind your thoughts, or God will smite you!," sort of fear-based religion. That's not faith at all. So, to put a point on it, yes, for too long I was afraid, unnecessarily so, and it did nothing but hold me back. It does nothing but hold everyone back.
 

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
XIII-Legion said:
Revelation 13:8 - and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.

Are those names in said book because they were preordained to be elect? Or are they elect because they by their free will chose Christ who foresaw their choice before the creation of the world?

It is in no way indisputably Calvinistic.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
By law, the Roman Emperors demanded to be worshipped as living gods. Christians refused to do this, in contrast to the members of polytheist religions. Revelation is a book narrating the deliverance of a small Christian minority surrounded by a non-Christian world power (Rome) that persecuted and killed them. :sarcastic

Bingo.

Much of Revelation is speaking of the persecution of Christians in Rome during the period it was written, using figurative language.
 

Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
If you mean was I phobic, frightened, worried, etc.? Yes, but only because of what people were telling me about their ideas of God, not what my heart was saying. The problem was I didn't know yet how to trust my heart or listen to it. I was full of doubt. And so their anxieties became mine, as they quoted the Bible seen through their eyes of anxiousness. "Better mind your thoughts, or God will smite you!," sort of fear-based religion. That's not faith at all. So, to put a point on it, yes, for too long I was afraid, unnecessarily so, and it did nothing but hold me back. It does nothing but hold everyone back.


So you'll agree that fear of God is necessary at some point in ones journey, correct?
Therefore mocking someone for their fear of a God is unnecessary.

Im under the assumption that everyone who fears God at some point comes to your conclusion. Just as I did. ^^
 

Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
So you'll agree that fear of God is necessary at some point in ones journey, correct?
No. Incorrect. I do not believe fright is good at any stage of spiritual development. In fact people think the opposite of love is hate, but it's not. The opposite of love is fear. It is fear that drive hate.

To underscore what I said, " So, to put a point on it, yes, for too long I was afraid, unnecessarily so, and it did nothing but hold me back. It does nothing but hold everyone back." So it is no necessary, as I said, it is unnecessary.

Here's a verse to underscore that.

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

I hear the opposite of fear in this.

Therefore mocking someone for their fear of a God is unnecessary.
I agree. I think mocking isn't productive. I would encourage them to question that approach, and I may challenge them to reconsider that.

Im under the assumption that everyone who fears God at some point comes to your conclusion. Just as I did. ^^
I happy you have. Truly. But I believe there are many who are too afraid to learn to have faith. I like that verse that came to mind I just quoted.
 

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
This doesn't seem like anything a Christian would say. Wishing damnation on anyone or gloating about how you think they will be damned is completely contradictory to the teachings of Christ, and goes entirely against the New Testament.

Yes, it is sinful to wish such things on a person. It's far, far worse from even wishing death on someone because there's no coming back from damnation.
 

Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
No. Incorrect. I do not believe fright is good at any stage of spiritual development. In fact people think the opposite of love is hate, but it's not. The opposite of love is fear. It is fear that drive hate.

To underscore what I said, " So, to put a point on it, yes, for too long I was afraid, unnecessarily so, and it did nothing but hold me back. It does nothing but hold everyone back." So it is no necessary, as I said, it is unnecessary.

Here's a verse to underscore that.

"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

I hear the opposite of fear in this.


I agree. I think mocking isn't productive. I would encourage them to question that approach, and I may challenge them to reconsider that.


I happy you have. Truly. But I believe there are many who are too afraid to learn to have faith. I like that verse that came to mind I just quoted.




My father grew up in Detroit and willingly attended a church that sounded more Lutheran as described than anything else. He has repeatedly told both me and my sister over the years that what he was taught was what he called..?? (unfortunately I cannot recall the term he used right now, its at the tip of my tongue danmit, if you can recall the term for me Id be most appreciative, or when I recall the term ill edit the post) Ill define it though - He called it a doctrine taught by MANY churches that teaches in short- divine punishment upon those who commit sin, break biblical law (law in the bible as described in the doctrine), or act against Gods will.

God does not punish us for sin because that's where Jesus comes in, thats the whole dam point of Jesus. Our sins are forgiven, past, present, and future, so why in the hell do we dwell over those to which we commit and why do we fear over them in the eyes of God? So, my father came to the conclusion that EVERYTHING (including sins) is permissible but not profitable, and that is entirely true. That is the reason why I rarely ever attend church, because im Tired of doctrines being taught that are so non-benign, and its almost every church to an extent.

Now, my Fear of God still lingers from time to time when I do foolish things like hookup. My fear comes from the thought of being punished by catching an STD, but how I've countered that is by telling myself that If I choose to hookup then I BETTER be accepting of the fact that If I catch an STD that its not Gods fault, that it was mine. Instead I ask for grace, not because I hookup for a release, but because I hookup to meet someone in a community where hookups are the primary means to meet others. I also tell myself that If I do catch an STD, that God will be by my side, and to have faith that God will lead the way to where I will A) Meet someone who needs my strength, Or B) Ill meet someone to which I need their strength, Or C) come to find the STD was the reason I found a new lover to begin with, originally what I feared wouldnt ever happen from an STD. In short, our decision making has consequences, whether it was willed by god or not, but the fear as you described is unnecessary for those with faith because we know theres always more to the story, most probably because we've always been looking up and seen how stories unfold. I can sin, but its not necessarily profitable. Do I sin to just sin? No, because some consequences they render if not covered by grace I sincerely don't want to live with. Other sins I feel strongly against.

Im hoping my fathers conclusion is one you've come to as well, if your a christian that is. It needs to be a doctrine taught in most churches but we find it isn't. Then again, whether this is taught or not, it seems like a learned realization that sparks over ones fear of God, and in time most come to this conclusion im hoping.

Now in reference to the OP, mocking him of his fear isn't necessary, let the journey for him unfold >.> Thats my original argument.
 
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Windwalker

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My father grew up in Detroit and willingly attended a church that sounded more Lutheran as described than anything else. He has repeatedly told both me and my sister over the years that what he was taught was what he called..?? (unfortunately I cannot recall the term he used right now, its at the tip of my tongue danmit, if you can recall the term for me Id be most appreciative, or when I recall the term ill edit the post) Ill define it though - He called it a doctrine taught by MANY churches that teaches in short- divine punishment upon those who commit sin, break biblical law (law in the bible as described in the doctrine), or act against Gods will.
Are you referring to purgatory? That is a Catholic teaching of a temporary transition space where someone works off their sin before going into heaven. Protestant churches don't typically believe in that.

God does not punish us for sin because that's where Jesus comes in, thats the whole dam point of Jesus. Our sins are forgiven, past, present, and future, so why in the hell do we dwell over those to which we commit and why do we fear over them in the eyes of God? So, my father came to the conclusion that EVERYTHING (including sins) is permissible but not profitable, and that is entirely true.
To an extent this is true. He was drawing off the verse of the Apostle Paul where he says, "All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify." This also ties to the verse in Romans where he says, "I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean." The context of both however is to be mindful of those around you and not be a cause of distress for them in your liberties.

That is the reason why I rarely ever attend church, because im Tired of doctrines being taught that are so non-benign, and its almost every church to an extent.
Legalistic churches teach the opposite of what Paul teaches in these verses I just quoted. To them, the thing in and of itself is sinful. They tie a millstone around the necks of those who do not conform to their manufactured list of sins they think God judges them for. This is the opposite of what Jesus teaches about his yoke being easy and his burden light. Their burden his heavy indeed and inhibits ones liberty in spirit. Jesus, ironically, saves someone from religion in this way.

Now, my Fear of God still lingers from time to time when I do foolish things like hookup. My fear comes from the thought of being punished by catching an STD, but how I've countered that is by telling myself that If I choose to hookup then I BETTER be accepting of the fact that If I catch an STD that its not Gods fault, that it was mine.
Yes, clearly the verses above are not meant to say anything goes, baby! There are always either benefits or consequences for our actions (as well are those things we dwell upon in our minds, I'll add). But I will add too, that we need to also be mindful its not just physical consequences, but mental and spiritual consequences as well.

Being obsessed over whether this or that is "permissible" to God, is really the wrong way of thinking about things. That whole approach makes God this 'lawgiver' entity "out there" we have to conform to. But that's not really the reality of it. There is a spiritual, divine nature within ourselves that how we live our lives either opens us to, or closes ourselves off from. As we open to it, we are healthier, happier, freer, more loving, compassionate, confident, calm, etc. As we close ourselves off from it, we are more anxiety ridden, fearful, unhealthy, isolated, doubtful, etc. I would think of it in terms of how you feel when you've eaten a healthy meal versus gorging on sweets and fats and overeating. In the former you feel light and energized, in the latter you feel sick and lethargic. What we put into our minds, and what we feed our souls does the same thing.

But what are those things? What is healthy and what is unhealthy?

Im hoping my fathers conclusion is one you've come to as well, if your a christian that is. It needs to be a doctrine taught in most churches but we find it isn't.
I think the challenge is that people want to be told what to do, to have someone or something outside themselves spell it out for them. And this is the appeal of legalistic churches to those full of self-doubt. To gain inner insight is hard work. It is a maturity that occurs over time. To know what is 'permissible' and what is not, really takes a deep inner knowledge. It takes being in touch with that divine spirit within us. And that takes work. Most people don't want to do that work and so they take the legalistic approach.

In fact, it just occurred to me that legalism is actually like being a couch potato, or an arm-chair philosopher, because it's easier to have it all figured out in their heads and criticize everyone else for 'not getting it', not being 'true believers' because they are hiding the fact they are not doing any actual exercise of spirit whatsoever. They may attend church, but they're not doing any actual work. The gathering together rather becomes a self-congratulatory exercise in ego-building, rather than ego-transcending. Spiritual development is ego-transcending. It leads to a life of non-judgement of others. It leads to compassion. It leads to understanding, and calm. It leads to Freedom from Fear. We cling to Fear, when we cling to the ego. It doesn't matter how religious and conformist one is to the rules, when they are stuck in their ego. That is living in fear. "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty".

There's a considerable amount more I can add to this, focusing on how there is a balance. "Everything is permissible" is not a license for self-indulgence. That is within the spiritual context. Your own inner awareness tells you what is good and not good for you. To just go an run amok, "Woo hoo! I can do anything I want!", isn't good either. Both the legalism and total abandonment is still functioning at the ego level.

One last thought. You asked if fear was a necessary stage. I said no, but in a sense like anything in life, it is going through the pain of living with what doesn't work, that we come to realize the beauty of what does. I do not believe anyone should be taught to be afraid of God, but the consequence of our own living which makes us afraid, in fact can eventual teach us we need release from living like that. So in that sense, fear serves God. It serves to break down our resistance or our path that leads us to separation from God within us.
 
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Thruve

Sheppard for the Die Hard
It serves to break down our resistance or our path that leads us to separation from God within us.

I can agree with you on that ^
And I like your approach on my argument too. Frubal for you!
 
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Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
This doesn't seem like anything a Christian would say. Wishing damnation on anyone or gloating about how you think they will be damned is completely contradictory to the teachings of Christ, and goes entirely against the New Testament.

He's been passing out eternal damnation like it's in his pocket.. He even referred to himself as Jesus. Who knows where the craziness begins and ends..
 
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