Some questions for all Christians

[TashaN]

"In the begining was the word and the word was with God."

Most of Christians interpreted this verse for me as the word is Jesus Christ. So, in the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God, who originally was there before Jesus, or Jesus was there before God the father? this is my first question.

My second question is, when someone talk about God, does s/he mean the three fully Gods (whether it's trinity, Godhead, etc) or only s/he is reffering to God "the father"?

My last question (hope so) is; when you want to ask for help, do you pray for Jesus to help you or the father in heaven?

Wait, i have got one more question.

I understand why people worship the father and Jesus, but what make the holy spirit God?


Thank you.

 

[lunamoth]

Hi Truth

"In the begining was the word and the word was with God."

The full sentence is: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Most of Christians interpreted this verse for me as the word is Jesus Christ. So, in the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God, who originally was there before Jesus, or Jesus was there before God the father? this is my first question.

The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are all one and all are eternal. Jesus is the Son.

My second question is, when someone talk about God, does s/he mean the three fully Gods (whether it's trinity, Godhead, etc) or only s/he is reffering to God "the father"?

God is the Trinity, three Persons one God.

My last question (hope so) is; when you want to ask for help, do you pray for Jesus to help you or the father in heaven?

I pray to God but usually feel connected to one of the three Persons directly when I pray, usually Jesus or the Spirit, but sometimes also the Father. It's all OK because they are all one.

Wait, i have got one more question.

I understand why people worship the father and Jesus, but what make the holy spirit God?

The Holy Spirit is one with the Father and the Son.

Thank you.

You are welcome.

 

[michel]

"In the begining was the word and the word was with God."

Most of Christians interpreted this verse for me as the word is Jesus Christ. So, in the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God, who originally was there before Jesus, or Jesus was there before God the father?

I have never thought of the interpretation of that - yet, I can instinctly say that the word is indeed "Jesus Christ"; in that

Jesus Christ isnot God, but he is the most highly developed spirit in all the heavens and is nearest to God in love and knowledge of truth.

(http://www.divinelove.org/volume1/v1-149.htm)

My second question is, when someone talk about God, does s/he mean the three fully Gods (whether it's trinity, Godhead, etc) or only s/he is reffering to God "the father"?

I can only reply as to my personal interpretation; to me, I am referring to "God the father"

My last question (hope so) is; when you want to ask for help, do you pray for Jesus to help you or the father in heaven?

Again, this is purely personal, I pray To God (The father) I pray to Jesus on any occasion relating to Forgiveness - but that was something about which I was unaware of until you asked the question.

Wait, i have got one more question.

Cheat!

I understand why people worship the father and Jesus, but what make the holy spirit God?

The New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia states(http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm)

A. Scripture

In the New Testament the word spirit and, perhaps, even the expression spirit of God signify at times the soul or man himself, inasmuch as he is under the influence of God and aspires to things above; more frequently, especially in St. Paul, they signify God acting in man; but they are used, besides, to designate not only a working of God in general, but a Divine Person, Who i&neither the Father nor the Son, Who is named together with the Father, or the Son, or with Both, without the context allowing them to be identified. A few instances are given here. We read in John, xiv, 16, 17: "And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with, you for ever. The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive"; and in John, xv, 26: "But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me." St. Peter addresses his first epistle, i, 1-2, "to the strangers dispersed . . . elect, according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, unto the sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ". The Spirit of consolation and of truth is also clearly distinguished in John 16:7, 13-15, from the Son, from Whom He receives all He is to teach the Apostles, and from the Father, who has nothing that the Son also does not possess. Both send Him, but He is not separated from Them, for the Father and the Son come with Him when He descends into our souls (John 14:23).

Which sounds (to me) an awfully long way round to explain my "Gut" feeling that the Holy Ghost (I prefer that to "holy Spirit") is that that is what is in each one of us....


To me, we were all "Part of god" at the begining, and we shall be "returned" to God at the end, when we have become perfect enough to once again be merged with him.

 

[TashaN]

The full sentence is: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

So that means we can understand it like: In the beginning was God, and God was with God, and the Word was God?

Or??

I can instinctly say that the word is indeed "Jesus Christ"; in that (http://www.divinelove.org/volume1/v1-149.htm)

Which one do you think is the more accepted interpretation in Christianity in general?

 

[TashaN]

I can only reply as to my personal interpretation; to me, I am referring to "God the father"

So that means, most of christians when they say "God" so they mean the father, not the trinity. Ok, thanks.

Again, this is purely personal, I pray To God (The father) I pray to Jesus on any occasion relating to Forgiveness - but that was something about which I was unaware of until you asked the question.

Because i have been told that they are all three fully Gods who make one full God I was under the impression that when you pray, you can reach them all at once, no?

Is there any benefit or special thing if you reached specific one of them, something like, you pray to each one according to what you need, or there is no such thing? I hope you got this question.

"And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with, you for ever.

Another Paraclete?

Who was the first one? if there is.

Thank you again.

 

[joeboonda]

The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are mentioned together a few times in scripture, here are some scriptures that may help. God is One God made up of three distinct persons, The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each with their special roles and subordination, yet all God, all Deity, three persons, one God. Notice the first verse in Mathew below, Jesus said to baptize in the NAME (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, not NAMES (plural), but in the NAME:

Matthew 28:19
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Matthew 3:16
16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him.
Mark 12:36
David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared: " 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet."
Luke 1:35
The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
Luke 3:22
and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
Luke 11:13
If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!"
John 14:26
But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Acts 1:8
But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.
Romans 5:5
And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
Romans 15:13
May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Romans 15:16
to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles with the priestly duty of proclaiming the gospel of God, so that the Gentiles might become an offering acceptable to God, sanctified by the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

 

[Katzpur]

"In the begining was the word and the word was with God."

Most of Christians interpreted this verse for me as the word is Jesus Christ. So, in the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God, who originally was there before Jesus, or Jesus was there before God the father? this is my first question.

Hi, Truth. I'm going to give you a little different perspective. According to LDS doctrine, Jesus Christ (i.e. the Word) was with God "in the beginning." He was also "God" -- "in the beginning." However, we see "in the beginning" as a relative statement. The Bible begins by describing the events that took place from "the beginning" forward. We believe that there was a time prior to "the beginning," prior to when the clock started ticking, that is not mentioned in the Bible. It was during this period of time that God organized the light of truth that was co-eternal with Him and from it organized the spirits of all life. One of these spirits was perfect in every way, just like the Father. This Spirit was named Jehovah. It was He who was with His Father "in the beginning." It was He who, under His Father's direction and guidance, created our universe. It was He who was appointed before His mortality to come to Earth as Jesus Christ to offer Himself as a sacrifice for the sins of the rest of us so that we might be able to return to God's presence.

My second question is, when someone talk about God, does s/he mean the three fully Gods (whether it's trinity, Godhead, etc) or only s/he is reffering to God "the father"?

For Latter-day Saints, it could be any one of the three beings who are part of the Godhead or it could be all of them collectively; it would all depend upon the context. Generally speaking, when Latter-day Saints speak of "God," we are thinking of God the Father.

My last question (hope so) is; when you want to ask for help, do you pray for Jesus to help you or the father in heaven?

We pray to our Father in Heaven. That is what Jesus instructed us to do just prior to what is known as "the Lord's prayer." But since He is our advocate with the Father, we close our prayer "in the name of Jesus Christ."

Wait, i have got one more question.

I understand why people worship the father and Jesus, but what make the holy spirit God?

From the LDS standpoint, both the Father and the Son have glorified, immortal bodies of flesh and bones. Hence, neither of them are physically present here on Earth, but reign over the Earth from Heaven, the Holy Ghost acts as the part of the Godhead who enables man to communicate with the Father. As a spirit being, He can be physically omnipresent. He can both fill the universe and dwell within our hearts. Without Him, there would be no interaction between God and man.

 

[PureX]

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

The original meaning of this translation is different than what most people think. The original word in Greek was not "word", but "logos". It read: "In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was of God. The logos was God..." The word "Logos" refers to the plan or intent or divine logic upon which all the material world is based, and through which the material world springs into being. So what is being stated here is that all existence is God's will, is an expression of God, and in fact IS God. And it always has been so. But it doesn't just mean the physical existence that we experience, it means the divine plan through which existence has come into being.

As we read further, the author is saying that this "logos", this divine plan that both is OF God and IS God, becomes expressed in the world as a human being. And that he is not recognized as such, by most people (not surprising, I would think). And we assume the author is referring to Jesus the Christ.

There are a couple of keys to understanding what this is about. One is in the deliberate repetition in the beginning, about the logos being both OF God (as if it were a separate phenomenon) and it being God (as one and the same). The author took the time to deliberately repeat this phrase connecting the "logos" to God in both ways: OF, and AS. And later, in all the gospels, this specific dual relationship is carefully maintained, wherein Jesus is referred to as being both OF God, and AS God on Earth.

I think that this somewhat contradictory duality of Jesus' relationship with God is very important to the religion that developed in Jesus' wake. And so it has been guarded very closely almost from the beginning. There are a number of reasons for it, but the end result is that Christians believe that Jesus was both God and man even though this can and often is seen as inherently contradictory.

But then lots of religions have such contradictions in their founding tenets.

I think the contradiction can be resolved fairly easily by interpreting the text and the rest of Jesus' story in a specific way, resulting in Jesus being the manifestation of God's love and forgiveness in the form of one specific man, but most people seem to neither need nor wish to resolve this dilemma that thoroughly. So unless you want to ask me specifically. I'll just leave it go, here.

 

[joeboonda]

I too, believe the Son, or Word of God was with God and was God in the beginning of time, by whom everything was made and by whom all things consist. I believe the Word is the ONLY begotten Son of God, and is fully God, not 'a' god, but one with God, a person of the trinity, as there is only one God, before Him there was none and beside Him there is no other, right? I believe Jesus sits at the right hand of God the Father in His resurrected, transformed, glorified body making intercession for us, our advocate with the Father. But God, I believe and according to the Bible is SPIRIT, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth. We baptize in the NAME (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The three-in-one God.

 

[lunamoth]

I think the contradiction can be resolved fairly easily by interpreting the text and the rest of Jesus' story in a specific way, resulting in Jesus being the manifestation of God's love and forgiveness in the form of one specific man, but most people seem to neither need nor wish to resolve this dilemma that thoroughly. So unless you want to ask me specifically. I'll just leave it go, here.

Great post. I like the above, it fits my understanding as well. I'd be interested in what else you have to say about this.

 

[Katzpur]

I believe the Word is the ONLY begotten Son of God, and is fully God, not 'a' god, but one with God, a person of the trinity, as there is only one God, before Him there was none and beside Him there is no other, right?

Right!

I believe Jesus sits at the right hand of God the Father in His resurrected, transformed, glorified body making intercession for us, our advocate with the Father.

Jesus still has His body then, according to your belief. Is that correct? One other question, how does Jesus manage to sit at the right hand of a spirit? (I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just don't understand how this is possible.)

But God, I believe and according to the Bible is SPIRIT, and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

I believe that God is spirit, too, just as I believe you and I are spirit. Is there somewhere in the Bible where we are told that a spirit cannot exist within a physical body? Also, if Jesus has a body and His Father does not, how can they be a single physical entity?

We baptize in the NAME (singular) of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

So do we.

The three-in-one God.

As described in which chapter and verse?

 

[PureX]

Great post. I like the above, it fits my understanding as well. I'd be interested in what else you have to say about this.

I think that when we look back on it from our time and perspective, we hugely under-appreciate this concept of "logos". It not only defines the nature and character of creation as it is expressed through the Creator's plan, or logic, but it defines the Creator's nature and character as well, as it's being expressed through creation, via this "logos". The concept of "logos" is the essence of authorship, viewed at a divine scale. The "logos" is like the mental outline a story-writer has in his head as he writes his book, and upon which all the characters in his book are created and their "lives" are acted out. But that "logos", that story outline, can be read both ways. As it will tell us as much about the author himself, as it is in turn being revealed through the story.

Also, we don't fully appreciate the power of authorship in our time as it was appreciated in the family-clan dominant culture of Jesus' day. In a family-clan dominant culture, the clan leader is viewed as all powerful within the clan, and is viewed as the ultimate spokesman for the clan among the community of other family clans. The clan leader is almost always the elder male, and the rest of the clan is his wife/wives, and his offspring and their wives. And the members of each clan were viewed by the other clans as spokesmen or representatives of the will of their clan leader. If I were to meet John, of the house of Peter, (John being a younger member of Peter's clan) I would view him as a representative of Peter, especially in case of any business agreement we might make, his word would be identical to Peter's word. And his whole clan would be held to the agreements of their leader.

So being a member of such a clan dominant society, means that a person's identity and position within the community is based hugely on the personality and intellect and reputation of his clan's leader. And that person will be seen as carrying the authority as his clan's leader. Also, his individual personality will become secondary to his position as a representative of his clan.

In such a society, we can only imagine the impact Jesus must have had when he went around referring to GOD as his father! Because in Jesus' world, to be the son of so-and-so meant having the authority of so-and-so, and meant being accorded the same deference by the community as so-and-so would be accorded. For Jesus to claim that his father is God, was to say in effect that he was from the house of God, and carried the authority and respect of God himself! In Jesus' day, to be the son of your father meant that you were a representative of your father's "logos". And I believe that is exactly what Jesus was saying: that he, and we all, are the sons and daughters of God, and that as such we are the representatives of God's divine nature: of God's "logos". And it's through Jesus that we learn what the nature of this divine logos is. It's also why Jesus speaks of himself both as if he were one and the same as God, yet not as God the father.

In Jesus' time, his speaking that way would not have been so confusing, because everyone understood the "authorship" of sons in the family-clan culture, and how it makes a son and his father one and the same in the eyes of other community members, even though they are not actually the same people.

And on a side note. When Jesus left whatever family clan he belonged to originally, and became a teacher and preacher, and began to collect "students" and followers, he was in effect creating his own clan. And this, too, was common in his day. Not all clans were based on blood relations. Some were formed though a specific religious vision, as was the case with Jesus and his disciples, and they functioned very much like the family clans did. Jesus' deciples would have viewed themselves as being representatives of his authority and ideology, as he was their leader, and the community would have treated them as such. This is why they were so frightened of being killed when Jesus was crucified. The Romans were not of such a strong family-clan culture, and so did not concern themselves with Jesus' deciples, but the Jews certainly were, it was of them they feared.

And rightly so. Because as Jesus' "clan sons", the deciples would have carried his authority and respect within the community even after Jesus was dead. And it's upon this clan-cultural theme that the early church was built. The reason the gospels are written under the disciples' names, even though it's very unlikely that any actual disciple of Jesus wrote them, is because the people who DID write them were deciples of the deciples. And in that clan-culture, it was very common that the student of a teacher was treated similarly as the son of a father; and would see himself, and be seen by others, as representing the ideas and authority of his teacher. So very often, students wrote in their teacher's names.

It all goes back to that idea of the "logos". And to seeing ourselves as manifestations of God's divine plan. And as such, we aren't just the manifestations of God's will, we are also the representations of God's will, and so are even the reflections of God, himself. I believe that Jesus believed and understood this fully, and routinely spoke of himself as such. Which is what completely freaked out his religious contemporaries. And is what eventually got him killed.

 

[joeboonda]

Right!

Jesus still has His body then, according to your belief. Is that correct? One other question, how does Jesus manage to sit at the right hand of a spirit? (I'm not trying to be argumentative. I just don't understand how this is possible.)

I believe that God is spirit, too, just as I believe you and I are spirit. Is there somewhere in the Bible where we are told that a spirit cannot exist within a physical body? Also, if Jesus has a body and His Father does not, how can they be a single physical entity?

So do we.

As described in which chapter and verse?

Yes, Jesus has His resurrected, transformed glorified body, which we will also have when we are changed in the moment in the twinkling of an eye.

While God does manifest Himself on a throne with thunders and ligtnings, etc. God is an infinite omni-present invisible Spirit as the Bible says:
John 4:24
24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
Luke 24:39
39Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Romans 1:20
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Colossians 1:15
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
1 Timothy 1:17
17Now unto the King eternal, immortal,invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

While no man can see God and live, God has manifested Himself to man as a burning bush, a pillar of fire, etc. and, yes, even in the form of a man. I am very careful to limit God to a physical body only, though, as He is infinite, all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-present. But, yes He can take on the form of a Human, I concurr. But I do not believe He is in Heaven in a physical body making spirit babies, nor do I believe Jesus and Lucifer were ever 'spirit brothers', as Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. (I don't know if you believe that, just threw it in, you can ignore it)
As far as the Trinity, I believe throughout the Bible we have several verses dealing with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, such as those in my above post. I.e. to baptize in the name, singular of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that these three are one in I John 5:7, (its in my Bible anyway), the baptism of Jesus where the Holy Spirit descends on Him like a dove and the Father says this is my Son in whom I am well pleased. (there's more to link them than that, but I'm lazy)
Main thing, and I know we look at it differently, is that God says He is one God, there are no other Gods that came before Me, and none after, none besides me. He asks is there any? I know not one. So, there is but one God, yet the Bible infers deity to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, all personages making up this one God. They cannot be three separate gods, for scripture clearly teaches there is but one God, so they must be one God manifest in three persons. That is just what I believe from scripture. I hope we didn't stray too far from the topic of this thread, but it is nice to discuss beliefs with you Katzpur, it seems such a thin line between us as far as doctrine goes, but then it seems like a gulf, too. Take care.
Mike

 

[Katzpur]

While no man can see God and live, God has manifested Himself to man as a burning bush, a pillar of fire, etc. and, yes, even in the form of a man. I am very careful to limit God to a physical body only, though, as He is infinite, all-knowing, all-powerful, and all-present. But, yes He can take on the form of a Human, I concurr.

I see. So basically, you are basing all of what you believe about God on one verse (John 4:24, which states that God is a spirit). This tunnel vision, of course, forces you to find explanations for the myriad of other verses in the Bible that describe Him as a man.

But I do not believe He is in Heaven in a physical body making spirit babies, nor do I believe Jesus and Lucifer were ever 'spirit brothers', as Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. (I don't know if you believe that, just threw it in, you can ignore it)/

No, I really can't ignore it. We've gone over this issue on many previous occasions, so don't claim you don't know what we believe when it has been explained to you countless times. Furthermore, it has absolutely nothing to do with the tropic of this thread. Why you felt it necessary to "just throw it" in is anybody's guess.

As far as the Trinity, I believe throughout the Bible we have several verses dealing with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, such as those in my above post. I.e. to baptize in the name, singular of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that these three are one in I John 5:7, (its in my Bible anyway), the baptism of Jesus where the Holy Spirit descends on Him like a dove and the Father says this is my Son in whom I am well pleased.

Sounds like the LDS doctrine of the Godhead to me. We believe that they are "one." All I have ever asked of you is to explain how they are one. That's a question I've been asking of you for a couple of years now and you haven't yet answered it.

Main thing, and I know we look at it differently, is that God says He is one God, there are no other Gods that came before Me, and none after, none besides me. He asks is there any? I know not one. So, there is but one God, yet the Bible infers deity to the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, all personages making up this one God. They cannot be three separate gods, for scripture clearly teaches there is but one God, so they must be one God manifest in three persons. That is just what I believe from scripture.

Actually, it's not all that far from what I believe, Mike. It's very, very close. With a few minor changes in wording, we seem to agree.

I hope we didn't stray too far from the topic of this thread, but it is nice to discuss beliefs with you Katzpur, it seems such a thin line between us as far as doctrine goes, but then it seems like a gulf, too.

It only becomes a gulf when you throw in extraneous material that you know to be misleading.

 

[may]

OK ,you have heard the rest ,now hear the best. and it is in harmony with the rest of the bible.
In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence............... now that is more like it should be

(Proverbs 8:22) "Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.​

(Colossians 1:15) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;​

(Revelation 3:14) "And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,..................yes Jesus was the first one to be created by Jehovah his father , and everything else was created through Jesus . he was with God in heaven before coming to the earth as a man .Yes he was with God. he is not GOD . AND THAT IS THE TRUTH do not be misled by .false religious teachings . not inline with the whole of the bible .

 

[lunamoth]

I think that when we look back on it from our time and perspective, we hugely under-appreciate this concept of "logos". It not only defines the nature and character of creation as it is expressed through the Creator's plan, or logic, but it defines the Creator's nature and character as well, as it's being expressed through creation, via this "logos". The concept of "logos" is the essence of authorship, viewed at a divine scale. The "logos" is like the mental outline a story-writer has in his head as he writes his book, and upon which all the characters in his book are created and their "lives" are acted out. But that "logos", that story outline, can be read both ways. As it will tell us as much about the author himself, as it is in turn being revealed through the story.

Also, we don't fully appreciate the power of authorship in our time as it was appreciated in the family-clan dominant culture of Jesus' day. In a family-clan dominant culture, the clan leader is viewed as all powerful within the clan, and is viewed as the ultimate spokesman for the clan among the community of other family clans. The clan leader is almost always the elder male, and the rest of the clan is his wife/wives, and his offspring and their wives. And the members of each clan were viewed by the other clans as spokesmen or representatives of the will of their clan leader. If I were to meet John, of the house of Peter, (John being a younger member of Peter's clan) I would view him as a representative of Peter, especially in case of any business agreement we might make, his word would be identical to Peter's word. And his whole clan would be held to the agreements of their leader.

So being a member of such a clan dominant society, means that a person's identity and position within the community is based hugely on the personality and intellect and reputation of his clan's leader. And that person will be seen as carrying the authority as his clan's leader. Also, his individual personality will become secondary to his position as a representative of his clan.

In such a society, we can only imagine the impact Jesus must have had when he went around referring to GOD as his father! Because in Jesus' world, to be the son of so-and-so meant having the authority of so-and-so, and meant being accorded the same deference by the community as so-and-so would be accorded. For Jesus to claim that his father is God, was to say in effect that he was from the house of God, and carried the authority and respect of God himself! In Jesus' day, to be the son of your father meant that you were a representative of your father's "logos". And I believe that is exactly what Jesus was saying: that he, and we all, are the sons and daughters of God, and that as such we are the representatives of God's divine nature: of God's "logos". And it's through Jesus that we learn what the nature of this divine logos is. It's also why Jesus speaks of himself both as if he were one and the same as God, yet not as God the father.

In Jesus' time, his speaking that way would not have been so confusing, because everyone understood the "authorship" of sons in the family-clan culture, and how it makes a son and his father one and the same in the eyes of other community members, even though they are not actually the same people.

And on a side note. When Jesus left whatever family clan he belonged to originally, and became a teacher and preacher, and began to collect "students" and followers, he was in effect creating his own clan. And this, too, was common in his day. Not all clans were based on blood relations. Some were formed though a specific religious vision, as was the case with Jesus and his disciples, and they functioned very much like the family clans did. Jesus' deciples would have viewed themselves as being representatives of his authority and ideology, as he was their leader, and the community would have treated them as such. This is why they were so frightened of being killed when Jesus was crucified. The Romans were not of such a strong family-clan culture, and so did not concern themselves with Jesus' deciples, but the Jews certainly were, it was of them they feared.

And rightly so. Because as Jesus' "clan sons", the deciples would have carried his authority and respect within the community even after Jesus was dead. And it's upon this clan-cultural theme that the early church was built. The reason the gospels are written under the disciples' names, even though it's very unlikely that any actual disciple of Jesus wrote them, is because the people who DID write them were deciples of the deciples. And in that clan-culture, it was very common that the student of a teacher was treated similarly as the son of a father; and would see himself, and be seen by others, as representing the ideas and authority of his teacher. So very often, students wrote in their teacher's names.

It all goes back to that idea of the "logos". And to seeing ourselves as manifestations of God's divine plan. And as such, we aren't just the manifestations of God's will, we are also the representations of God's will, and so are even the reflections of God, himself. I believe that Jesus believed and understood this fully, and routinely spoke of himself as such. Which is what completely freaked out his religious contemporaries. And is what eventually got him killed.

Cool post and thank you for exanding upon this idea. I owe you some frubals.

 

[dawny0826]

"In the begining was the word and the word was with God."

Most of Christians interpreted this verse for me as the word is Jesus Christ. So, in the beginning was Jesus and Jesus was with God, who originally was there before Jesus, or Jesus was there before God the father? this is my first question.

My second question is, when someone talk about God, does s/he mean the three fully Gods (whether it's trinity, Godhead, etc) or only s/he is reffering to God "the father"?

My last question (hope so) is; when you want to ask for help, do you pray for Jesus to help you or the father in heaven?

Wait, i have got one more question.

I understand why people worship the father and Jesus, but what make the holy spirit God?


Thank you.

I fully embrace the Trinity.

A good visual for how I view God...a three leaf Shamrock.

ONE shamrock. Three leaves...

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit...all ONE God Almighty.

I pray in the name of Jesus Christ as I've been instructed to do.

To me, God is Father, Christ and Spirit.

 

[neves]

Can someone please explain what is the Holy Spirit really is? I get the impression it/she/he was send to more people than just Jesus...

 

[PureX]

Can someone please explain what is the Holy Spirit really is? I get the impression it/she/he was send to more people than just Jesus...

The "holy spirit" is not a person. It's God's spirit (logos) as it is expressed in us.

When you go to a wedding party, there is a certain kind of "spirit" being shared, there, by the participants. It's the spirit of joy, and of love, and of family and community, all being brought to light by the event of the wedding. And the "holy spirit" is this kind of spirit, only it's the spirit of "Godliness". It's the spirit of love and forgiveness and generosity toward ourselves and others. It's the spirit of awe and gratitude toward God as our creator. And for some folks, it's a spirit of respect and devotion toward their religious beliefs and practices.

 

[michel]

Or??

Which one do you think is the more accepted interpretation in Christianity in general?

Listen to everyone else; my Christianity is "spiritual" rather than religious; I go by my own personal relationship (as I understand it) with God, rather than by scripture.

I quoted some scripture (which I found on the internet), because I was trying to see if it bore any resemblence whatsoever to what I believe.

I am not a "proper Christian".

The "holy spirit" is not a person. It's God's spirit (logos) as it is expressed in us.

When you go to a wedding party, there is a certain kind of "spirit" being shared, there, by the participants. It's the spirit of joy, and of love, and of family and community, all being brought to light by the event of the wedding. And the "holy spirit" is this kind of spirit, only it's the spirit of "Godliness". It's the spirit of love and forgiveness and generosity toward ourselves and others. It's the spirit of awe and gratitude toward God as our creator. And for some folks, it's a spirit of respect and devotion toward their religious beliefs and practices.

You see, that is the strange thing; I do not read scripture (and I say I am not a proper "Christian") and yet that is identical with my "home grown" understanding.