Some Questions On Christianity

[Gharib]

Hi everyone.

I have been watching a few comparative debates between Islam and Christianity, namely they have been about Jesus and what the Bible says of him.

In one of the debates, the Christian scholar says that humanity dishonored God, (he makes an example for the Muslims so that they can understand the severity of this case) and says that God could not just let it go, there had to be vengeance.

At the same time he says that we must balance God the Merciful, God the Forgiving and God the Just who requires vengeance for the rebellion of humanity. (note: that's the one and same God, but 3 different attributes).

As vengeance, God sends his son Jesus, who is divine, to take on the sin of humanity and to offer himself for punishment (to be crucified).

So my questions are based on that above:

1. Is it just of God to place the sin of humanity on an innocent third party and to punish him for what he didn't commit?

2. If Jesus is/was actually God, and God took the sin onto Himself, then how can we say that God punished himself through crucifixion if the spirit of God is eternal and instead only the earthly, materialistic, body paid the price while the divine spirit within the body was never affected and never died?

I have some more questions, but I will ask them latter.
I would ask him these questions, but unfortunately that's not possible.

 

[Green Kepi]

Since no one has attempted an answer...I'll give it a try:

I realize you do not believe that Jesus is God the Son and not the Father; however, yes...its God's Plan developed prior to His creation of this present world. God did not punish Himself, since Jesus is not God the Father...He is God the Son.

Christ's death had to be death by the shedding of blood, for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul (Leviticus 17:11). That's why the Church was purchased with His own blood (Acts 20:28), its why we Christians are able to have redemption and the forgiveness of sins through His blood (Ephesians 1:7), and why the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses we Christians from all sin (1 John 1:7).

 

[Bob Dixon]

But why would the Almighty God require blood?
That is such a petty thing for such a great deity!

 

[Green Kepi]

Heck...I don't know why God chose to do it this way. All I know is what He tells me in His Word...and that He relates that the sacrificing of animals was given to the Israelites as a lesson about the cost that He would pay in the person of His Son Jesus to redeem humanity to Himself.

God told Moses that blood represented life. The blood of the sacrificed, innocent animals represented the cost of redemption in the blood of God’s own Son.

Hebrews 9:22 states, “And almost all things are by the Law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.” Through symbols of the Jewish blood sacrifices, Christians learned that salvation of the human race would cost the life of Christ.

 

[F0uad]

As i know this isn't a debate human-sacrifices are forbidden in the bible what Jesus(p) was upholding according to Matthew and Mark.

But like esslam stated and my question also is:

If Jesus is/was actually God, and God took the sin onto Himself and then died for the sins of man how could this be case because since God cannot die according to basic knowledge and its actually blasphemy to say that God died according to Christian teachings.

Since the premises is that god died for your sins and not the human-nature(shell for your soul) died for the sins.

 

[Green Kepi]

FOuad...Jesus is not God the Father. He is God the Son. There's a big difference. God did not die...it was the human body of Jesus that was murdered. Jesus emptied Himself and came to earth to live as a man. But...He did not really die, His Spirit continued to live...the human 'shell' was what died. Jesus was alive before He came to earth as a man and He was very much alive when His 'shell' died on the cross....

 

[Bob Dixon]

FOuad...Jesus is not God the Father. He is God the Son. There's a big difference. God did not die...it was the human body of Jesus that was murdered. Jesus emptied Himself and came to earth to live as a man. But...He did not really die, His Spirit continued to live...the human 'shell' was what died. Jesus was alive before He came to earth as a man and He was very much alive when His 'shell' died on the cross....

This is actually fairly similar to Islamic teaching, F0uad, in which Jesus did not die, but it only appeared so (though Islamic teachings about this are varied, are they not?); to the average onlooker, it would appear that Jesus "died" because his body would have stopped functioning. But the real Jesus, the spirit of Jesus, remained living. See?

 

[Katzpur]

I'm going to answer these questions from the LDS (Mormon) perspective, which may be somewhat different from that of traditional Christianity, but Christian nevertheless.

1. Is it just of God to place the sin of humanity on an innocent third party and to punish him for what he didn't commit?

We believe that Jesus Christ actually offered Himself as a sacrifice for the sins of the rest of mankind. It definitely was not forced upon Him. The reason for this is that we, as human beings, are incapable of perfection on our own and require the help of one who is perfect in order to be fully reconciled to God. Here is an analogy that may help shed some light on the subject:

"If two companies, one totally bankrupt and the other incredibly profitable, should merge to create a single, new corporation, what happens to the debts of the weaker company? They are paid out of the profits of the stronger, and the corporation, the combination of the two, is judged to be financially sound. As long as there is more being produced by the one than is being lost through the other, the corporation is in the black. It is profitable. It is financially justified.

The same is true in the spiritual parallel. When we enter into the covenant of the gospel and become one with covenant of the gospel and become one with Christ, we create a new corporate entity, a partnership, that is immediately profitable and immediately justified through the infinite merits of the Savior (the only really profitable enterprise). And as long as we don't dissolve the partnership, we are justified by his merts in that unique relationship. As an indiviaul, I may have no hope, but as a junior partner in a joint venture with Christ, I hav every assurance of success." (Believing Christ by Stephen E. Robinson)

Note: It is still absolutely essential that we repent of our sins and keep God's commandments to the best of our ability. I hope that helps.

2. If Jesus is/was actually God, and God took the sin onto Himself, then how can we say that God punished himself through crucifixion if the spirit of God is eternal and instead only the earthly, materialistic, body paid the price while the divine spirit within the body was never affected and never died?

Mormons believe in three physically distinct divine beings who are "one" in will, purpose, mind and heart. These are God the Eternal Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. All three of them share the title of "God," but as Jesus Christ himself said, "The Father is greater than the Son." Jesus Christ is considered to be equal to His Father in terms of his goodness and power, but He also acknowledges the Father as His God. This relationship differs from the traditional Christian concept of the Trinity.

 

[Me Myself]

But why would the Almighty God require blood?
That is such a petty thing for such a great deity!

agreed. But I have a feeling this will get bloody and will need be passed to religious debate section

 

[Pegg]

Hi everyone.

I have been watching a few comparative debates between Islam and Christianity, namely they have been about Jesus and what the Bible says of him.

In one of the debates, the Christian scholar says that humanity dishonored God, (he makes an example for the Muslims so that they can understand the severity of this case) and says that God could not just let it go, there had to be vengeance.

At the same time he says that we must balance God the Merciful, God the Forgiving and God the Just who requires vengeance for the rebellion of humanity. (note: that's the one and same God, but 3 different attributes).

As vengeance, God sends his son Jesus, who is divine, to take on the sin of humanity and to offer himself for punishment (to be crucified).

So my questions are based on that above:

1. Is it just of God to place the sin of humanity on an innocent third party and to punish him for what he didn't commit?

whoever this scholar is, he is not a very good one because he is not basing his teachings on the scriptures.

The scriptures state:

Romans 5:12 That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned

Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God

We all commit our own acts of sin and for that reason, the consequences of our own sin are imposed upon us all. God is not punishing us for someone else's sin but rather for the sins we individually commit.

2. If Jesus is/was actually God, and God took the sin onto Himself, then how can we say that God punished himself through crucifixion if the spirit of God is eternal and instead only the earthly, materialistic, body paid the price while the divine spirit within the body was never affected and never died?

again, this idea is not in harmony with what the scriptures tell us about Jesus. Jesus never claimed to be God but rather he claimed to be a son of God. The apostles viewed him as one of Gods first creations...an angel who originally was in heaven with God but who had been sent to earth to provide mankind with a perfect human sacrifice to provide mankind with a ransom in exchange for their life.

 

[F0uad]

I hope i can reply on this without people thinking i am debating

FOuad...Jesus is not God the Father. He is God the Son. There's a big difference. God did not die...it was the human body of Jesus that was murdered. Jesus emptied Himself and came to earth to live as a man. But...He did not really die, His Spirit continued to live...the human 'shell' was what died. Jesus was alive before He came to earth as a man and He was very much alive when His 'shell' died on the cross....

Since both are god they are the same One person... If they are two different beings then they are also two different gods.

If only the body died and not the soul then Jesus(p) didn't die for your sins nor took your sins

This is actually fairly similar to Islamic teaching, F0uad, in which Jesus did not die, but it only appeared so (though Islamic teachings about this are varied, are they not?); to the average onlooker, it would appear that Jesus "died" because his body would have stopped functioning. But the real Jesus, the spirit of Jesus, remained living. See?

No it isn't since Islamic teachings tell us that Jesus(p) wasn't crucified nor killed if Jesus(p) kept living then he didn't took your sins as logic would say... and the term ''Jesus(p) is your salvation'' should be erased since we both belief that a body is just a shell and nothing more.

Also keep in mind that Human-sacrifices are forbidden according to God's law since Jesus(p) appears to be a part of god or god then he made the law himself and later broke it?

 

[dawny0826]

Hi everyone.

I have been watching a few comparative debates between Islam and Christianity, namely they have been about Jesus and what the Bible says of him.

In one of the debates, the Christian scholar says that humanity dishonored God, (he makes an example for the Muslims so that they can understand the severity of this case) and says that God could not just let it go, there had to be vengeance.

At the same time he says that we must balance God the Merciful, God the Forgiving and God the Just who requires vengeance for the rebellion of humanity. (note: that's the one and same God, but 3 different attributes).

As vengeance, God sends his son Jesus, who is divine, to take on the sin of humanity and to offer himself for punishment (to be crucified).

So my questions are based on that above:

1. Is it just of God to place the sin of humanity on an innocent third party and to punish him for what he didn't commit?

2. If Jesus is/was actually God, and God took the sin onto Himself, then how can we say that God punished himself through crucifixion if the spirit of God is eternal and instead only the earthly, materialistic, body paid the price while the divine spirit within the body was never affected and never died?

I have some more questions, but I will ask them latter.
I would ask him these questions, but unfortunately that's not possible.

This is my understanding and I don't claim that all Christians share my understanding. So, I offer this to you as one perspective.

God established a covenant with His people and they were to live under His law, but, His people were not obedient. As an Almighty Creator and Father, He laid the law down, put the "smack down" in terms of warning them...look...get with the program, or these are the consequences for you and the generations that follow and yet, mankind didn't obey.

God switched things up and came to us in flesh, to show us, as a man, what it should look like to commune with Him, to live in love, to be obedient, etc. He showed us through Christ, how we are supposed to live our lives while no this earth. And then through Christ's death on the cross, the ultimate sacrifice was made, so that humans no longer had to make sacrifies for their sin. Christ was the last, ultimate sacrifice. His blood was shed to cover sin. Additionally, this sacrifice was representative of the spiritual death one undergoes when they decide that they want reconcilation with God Almighty. I'm letting this life go, to accept life in Christ/God.

Christ was resurrected. Rebirth. Life. It's as symbolic as it was literal. It's that rebirth that one experiences when they choose and embrace God's love and the life that's found in God.

And as promised, God's spirit comes to us or is revived within us, whatever one believes, when we turn our eyes to Him and follow Him.

Anyway, this is my understanding.

 

[Bob Dixon]

Wouldn't this thread work better as a debate?

 

[Green Kepi]

I hope i can reply on this without people thinking i am debating

"Since both are god they are the same One person... If they are two different beings then they are also two different gods.

If only the body died and not the soul then Jesus(p) didn't die for your sins nor took your sins"


Well...since there is so much concern about "debating" and your belief is so completely different from mine...there's not much I can say back to you. Oh...well....

 

[Katzpur]

Since both are god they are the same One person... If they are two different beings then they are also two different gods.

I disagree. I believe the word "God" can accurately be used as a collective noun. In other words, it is a singular noun (like "team"), but it is made up of more than one "person." If you are cheering for a team, you are cheering for a group of people, not just one of them. There is nowhere in the Bible where we are told that the Father and the Son are "one essence" "one substance." We are told that they are "one God." "God" is a title, and two individuals can easily share a title.

 

[Curious Michael]

Well...since there is so much concern about "debating" and your belief is so completely different from mine...there's not much I can say back to you. Oh...well....

This is probably the wrong place to ask this, but I can't find the right place.

Since bible interpretation is an individual matter subject to huge variances between equally smart and educated people, how can you post a question and assume that the FIRST response that you get back is the one and only (i.e., not debatable) interpretation? I'm just not sure how you can, on the one hand, allow anyone to post responses, and on the other hand say that debating is not allowed? This doesn't make sense, does it?

I'm just learning the rules here, but this one I totally don't understand. Can anyone explain it to me?

 

[Doulos]

Hi everyone.

I have been watching a few comparative debates between Islam and Christianity, namely they have been about Jesus and what the Bible says of him.

In one of the debates, the Christian scholar says that humanity dishonored God, (he makes an example for the Muslims so that they can understand the severity of this case) and says that God could not just let it go, there had to be vengeance.

At the same time he says that we must balance God the Merciful, God the Forgiving and God the Just who requires vengeance for the rebellion of humanity. (note: that's the one and same God, but 3 different attributes).

As vengeance, God sends his son Jesus, who is divine, to take on the sin of humanity and to offer himself for punishment (to be crucified).

So my questions are based on that above:

1. Is it just of God to place the sin of humanity on an innocent third party and to punish him for what he didn't commit?

2. If Jesus is/was actually God, and God took the sin onto Himself, then how can we say that God punished himself through crucifixion if the spirit of God is eternal and instead only the earthly, materialistic, body paid the price while the divine spirit within the body was never affected and never died?

I have some more questions, but I will ask them latter.
I would ask him these questions, but unfortunately that's not possible.

Asalaam Alaikuum Eselam,

Let me please caution you first that not all the replies you read here are from Christians. The Jehovah's Witnesses and LDS for example are considered as heretical sects within Christianity, similar to how Muslims would view Ahmidayya. This is not to critique people who are not considered Christian, but merely to say that if you are seeking a Christian response, you should seek a Christian.

In regards to your first question,
"1. Is it just of God to place the sin of humanity on an innocent third party and to punish him for what he didn't commit? "

a) Consider the story of Abraham (saw) being asked to sacrifice his son. In this case, God sent a substitute to bear the sacrifice. The lamb was innocent, but God sent him.

b) Jesus the Messiah (saw) is called the "Lamb of God" because he was sent for this purpose, to bear the sin of man upon himself. (Rasulullah John the Baptist(saw) says of Jesus (saw), “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1;29))

c) Rasulullah John the Baptist(saw) tells us that Jesus (saw) said, "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life&#8212;only to take it up again.</SPAN> No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.&#8221;</SPAN> (John 10:17-18)

d) Jesus (saw) is completely innocent, but it is precisely because an innocent sacrifice is made that the sins can be paid for once and for all. ("It is better, if it is God&#8217;s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit" (1 Peter 3:17-18))

e) This sacrifice is entirely unfair. Rarely a person will die for an innocent man, but why would an innocent man be made to die for the guilty? The only possible reason is if the innocent man accepts death because he loves the guilty. ("For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.</SPAN> For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." (John 3;16-17))

God's sacrifice of Jesus the Messiah(saw) was because He is the Most Merciful and the Utterly Just. Sin requires payment. So God, out of His love and mercy made the payment.


Say: I seek refuge with the Lord and Cherisher of Mankind,
The King (or Ruler) of Mankind,
The god (or judge) of Mankind,-
From the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil), who withdraws (after his whisper),-
(The same) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,-
Among Jinns and among men.
(Surat Al-Nas)


Asalaam Alaikuum, God's peace and grace be upon you.
May you rest in God's peace as did Sahabah Ubayd-Allah ibn Jahsh &#1593;&#1576;&#1610;&#1583; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1576;&#1606; &#1580;&#1581;&#1588;

 

[Doulos]

This is probably the wrong place to ask this, but I can't find the right place.

Since bible interpretation is an individual matter subject to huge variances between equally smart and educated people, how can you post a question and assume that the FIRST response that you get back is the one and only (i.e., not debatable) interpretation? I'm just not sure how you can, on the one hand, allow anyone to post responses, and on the other hand say that debating is not allowed? This doesn't make sense, does it?

I'm just learning the rules here, but this one I totally don't understand. Can anyone explain it to me?

I'm new here myself, and ask myself the same thing

 

[Mdf.carter]

In order to find the answer you must go before man I the level of creation, which goes outside of just the bible into other stories of origin. One being from the story of the Sumerian race where gods came down needing servants and created them with apes. The story from the book of Enoch where he ListShe angels the came down from Heaven to mate with the daughters of man. We all know these tells. It you add facts to this like for example the different evolutionary species of the hominids like homo-erectus and the neanderthal, you can to the conclusion man was no different than animals literally. In Genesis it states God created Adam and Eve, which were the first Homosapians. If you pay attention how those Cain go off to find a wife and God give him a mark that wil, keep any man from harming him, if they were the first man. The wife he was to find and men who would not hurt him were the creations or perversions of the fallen angels who were seen as gods by the other races and religions. The purpose was salvation for all the creation but animals nor angels can be saved. The guilty were not man but that which created man. We are missing a link between neanderthal and Homosapians but yet Europeans and Asians have traces of neatherthal in the genes. We are to believe that the nephilim were destroyed in the deluge of Noah and yet Goliath was a giant of corruptible seed, meaning not a pure creation, a form a perversion which in another term, Gentile. Remember sin is not in our actions it is in our nature, and the punishment is not so much as to what we deserve as it is what happens when a soda can is recycled. All that we experience on this earths is a cleanup of what the fallen had done, not what we are doing. The purpose of salvation is simply that being saved. If you do not understand sodem and gomorrah on an earth scale. But before the destruction Lot and his family were taking to safety. God in the flesh, Jesus, came with two angels to deliver them from the judgement, which is not punishment as it is taught but an initial desicion to wipe the canvase clean. But where can the righteous in Christ go in an world level judgment, the only answer is heaven. But first you have to be able to get there. God is a God or order and structure, before all things were created there was a place and time for all things that were to be created. But the nephilim and children of the nephilim had no place in this order. Therefore God let Cain go forth in order to give off offspring that coul be saved. A species that was already in the plan for salvation. So God does not break his own law to save the creation for something they did not earn nor deserve. To be born corrupted. And by God crucifying himself he said the angels were my children and I will pay the price for what they did, just like if you kid breaks something in a store and you do what? Pay for it. He took the blame for them as for as we are concerned. And as far as the spirit being eternal all spirits are eternal except for those that will enter the second death, but he had to take on sin in order to go to Sheol where Abraham and the patriarchs rested in order to preach salvation to them that they may go to heaven to. Remember we have free will so we must consent to go to Heaven. For it was never in our nature to ascend only to descend you go from where you came. We came from the earth and the earth we return. But now we can chose to go up. But only o body that came from heaven could go to heaven. Remember Jesus said I am the bread from heaven your forefathers ate. Showing God placed the flesh of Christ in the Isrealites way before it developed in Mary. In fact the crucifixion and punishment of his flesh is way more complicated than just the simple taking on our judgement. But simply put it was to combination God placed down before creation should the creation need saving, so it would be accomplished. And not only accomplished but affect humans on the emotional level nessesary for man to believe and connect to a man that claimed he was the son on Elohim and was one with him. You are either insane to make those claims or telling the truth, and actions spoke louder than words by fulfilling every prophesy spoken concerning the issue.