Someone in the US Dies every 12 minutes from Lack of Health Care

[Storm]

I did not blame victims, I blamed masochists.

BS. Total bs.

 

[idea]

I believe we need healthcare reform - especially when it comes to pre existing conditions coverage, and TORT REFORM.

I agree - reform is needed, not socialized medicine.

 

[idea]

BS. Total bs.

please list which you think are victims:
Reasons people die:

Quote:
♦ Colon Cancer: “I don’t want to spend a day cleaning out my intestines so a six-foot tube can be inserted from the bottom up. Besides, it’s gross.”
♦ Malignant Melanoma: “It’s just a beauty mark...”
♦ Heart Attack: “I’m cutting back on eggs, thanks anyway.”
♦ Esophageal Cancer: “Everybody gets heartburn, right?”
♦ Cervical Cancer: “PAP Smear every year, I'd almost rather die..."
♦ Aortic Aneurysm: “Never heard of it.”
♦ Lung Cancer: “I’ve already quit five times. It isn’t going to happen.”
♦ Breast Cancer: “That mammogram thing hurts.”
♦ Prostate Cancer: “I pee fine. Why bother with a test even my doctor hates to perform?”
♦ Heart-Lung Failure: “Ok, my own snoring woke me up sometimes, but who knew…”
♦ Complications resulting from a broken hip: “Don’t need that bone density test. Every time I see that doctor he’s got something else he wants me to do.”
Stupid Reasons People Die

some more from the above site:

Quote:
Dr. Corso explains the typical and most common stupid reasons people die:

#1 Human Nature: we’re reactive, not proactive.
#2 Waiting until insurance pays for it. A good screening test is a good screening test no matter who writes the check.
#3 Falling through the Gap between The State of the Art and The Standard of Care in health screening and treatments.
#4 Misunderstanding medical information – E.g.: Most heart attacks strike people with normal cholesterol!
#5 Inadequate treatment of problems: failure to identify all risks or failure to treat known risks aggressively.
#6 Fear of science and technology and so choosing ineffective alternatives to effective treatments.
#7 Belief that “all natural” means “all healthy.”
#8 Assuming our health-care system can or should cover our preventive-care issues.
#9 Believing and reacting to sensational news stories in the media. Often the information is incomplete, leaving the viewer with half the story.


at some point people need to be accountable for themselves

 

[Storm]

please list which you think are victims:

Reposting your strawman doesn't bring it any closer to truth.

You want truth? If I weren't "lucky" enough to be poor enough to have access to socialized medicine, my son would be dead now. That's truth.

Not that it matters to you. If he'd died, I'm sure you'd find a way to make it my fault.

 

[idea]

for those who support nationalized health care, how do you propose to make people accountable for preventable health conditions? Or do you think people should have no responsibility for taking care of themselves?

 

[idea]

You want truth? If I weren't "lucky" enough to be poor enough to have access to socialized medicine, my son would be dead now. That's truth.

so, the current system works, you are both provided for, what is the problem?

 

[Storm]

for those who support nationalized health care, how do you propose to make people accountable for preventable health conditions? Or do you think people should have no responsibility for taking care of themselves?

You're absolutely right. Let 'em die, they deserve it.

 

[Storm]

so, the current system works, you are both provided for, what is the problem?

Other people AREN'T provided for, because the system DOESN'T work. And, unlike you, I give a rat's *** about someone besides myself.

 

[idea]

Other people AREN'T provided for, because the system DOESN'T work. And, unlike you, I give a rat's *** about someone besides myself.

empowering people to make victims of themselves is not helping them.

Teach a man to fish, or give them a fish.
It is more loving to teach them to fish.

 

[Storm]

empowering people to make victims of themselves is not helping them.

Yeah, those cancer kids just need to get their priorities straight.

Teach a man to fish, or give them a fish.
It is more loving to teach them to fish.

And how do you propose we teach people to irradiate their own tumors?

 

[gnomon]

According to a Harvard Medical School study, about 45,000 people die each year in the US from lack of adequate health care. That's roughly one person every 12 minutes.

Harvard Medical Study Links Lack of Insurance to 45,000 U.S. Deaths a Year - Prescriptions Blog - NYTimes.com

No health coverage tied to 45,000 deaths a year - Health care- msnbc.com

Is this acceptable? Why or why not?

I don't know. How many minutes does it take for someone to die elsewhere in the world due to problems with health care in other nations? Or is it that adequate health care, or lack of it, is the issue? Which form of health care? Apparently the U.S. has hands down the best cancer treatment and most timely cancer treatment facilities in the world. Or is it a general issue? A general issue where health care treatment itself is not the problem but just where the money is flowing?

So, in reality, is it an economic issue? If so, why isn't the "healthcare" argument, which is really an "economic" argument, more concerned with issues such as drug patents? Prescription drugs are very, very expensive and more expensive than a free market would grant. The patents are suspiciously expansive in allowing a very small number of companies to manufacture and reap windfalls on new drugs. How much could be solved economically if a wider range of competition allowed to supply the demand in pharmaceuticals?

There are many questions I'd like answered. To be honest, given the state of the economy, the housing market, two war fronts that are now six and eight years old with showing very little sign of changing for the better, trillions of dollars spent on tentative recovery programs with nary a whiff of reform........a debate on expansive healthcare changes with this Congress and this President seems like the most immature, irresponsible and irrational thing to do right now.

It's also becoming increasingly annoying how the healthcare debate seems to be used more by "both sides", actually the left on this one, as a tool to score political points against others than actually any well meaning reform to help people. There's no reason in the debate. Crap generalizations because someone snapped a photo of a "teabagger" holding an Obama as Hitler sign is supposed to be indicative of something important. It's not. Maureen Dowd, NYT specialized hack editorialist, writes an inane column on Joe Wilson where she claims to have heard, admittedly in her own mind, "You lie, boy!" sets off the dumbest debate about race I've ever encountered.

And they tie it all in to health care.

You know what scares me. Every 18 seconds in this nation someone is arrested for a drug crime. 1,752,000 people every year. The majority of those arrests are simple possession for use arrests. While many of those conclude in mere misdemeanors a high enough percentage of those lead to prison, loss of jobs and disruption of families. Many of those with misdemeanor lead to loss of jobs and disruption of families. Almost half of those arrests are for marijuana. I'll refrain from a continued digression on the drug war put there's an important point here:

1) The Congress is comprised, and fully controlled by, individuals who oversaw the falling apart of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac
2) Whose **** poor regulations of the those lending institutions they have only themselves to blame
3) Maintain a poor record of ruining the lives of citizens with draconian drug laws (every 18 seconds - from the FBI Uniform Crime Report), making no move on prison reform where healthcare of individuals who are wards of the state are a complete joke and show no sign of budging on, in an area of healthcare, medical marijuana. That's coming from the states!
4) There has been practically no grounds made by this government, these members of this current Senate and House, to fix the problems with the regulation (there was not a lack of regulation) of the lending agencies, housing market and law enforcement not to mention they refuse to budge on the issue of ethics to police themselves.

So when our government says they want to look at healthcare I have zero trust in them. Not Obama, not the memory of Kennedy....none of them.

And considering the media and my fellow liberal citizens have gone hog**** nuts on taking every opportunity to paint anyone with a voice of dissent as a bigot and then walk away like they actually said something important. This debate is a fool's paradise.

I also admit I'm so far behind on this issue I'm still trying to figure out how exactly the patents work in the pharmaceutical industry and wonder if there's anything there that can be changed. Seems like a good starting place to drive down costs for everyone without having to tax a single soul. I can't believe others who so nonchalantly state, "Oh, we need universal healthcare" when they can't even fully explain what they mean!

 

[Gentoo]

But WHY don't people have healthcare?

Some people don't have it because they are here illegally. Some people don't have it because they can afford health insurance but choose not to carry it.

Some people COULD buy it but they'd rather spend that money on vacations or a bigger house.

So - how many legal US citizens genuinely are not able to have health coverage because they cannot afford it?

::Raises hand::

Next question - How much money are you PERSONALLY willing to shell out of your OWN pocket to offer quality healthcare to people you don't know - people who may lead lifestyles that are incredibly detrimental to their health, or lifestyles you would not knowingly support?

Honestly, as much as I can afford. I don't see how helping each other out in a time of need is a bad thing.

See, it's not all about what you can GET - it's also about what you're willing to GIVE. What are YOU willing to spend on OTHER PEOPLE'S health?

5% of your pay? 20%? What? What's your cutoff point? And WHY do you have a cutoff point? If even ONE PERSON'S death is so incredibly important to you, why aren't you out doing something about it RIGHT THIS MINUTE? Why aren't you out volunteering at a local non profit health clinic? What are you doing for your neighbors to improve their health today?

Someone will have to pay for all of this. That someone isn't someone ELSE. It's you. And it's going to hit your pocket in ways you never dreamed of.

That's fine. We all can take care of each other. I don't care WHY someone needs the help they do, I just know that they do. I haven't gotten a paycheck in almost 6 months, but I still give a dollar here and there to people playing guitar or something on the streets when I have one.

 

[Magic Man]

But WHY don't people have healthcare?

Some people don't have it because they are here illegally. Some people don't have it because they can afford health insurance but choose not to carry it.

Some people COULD buy it but they'd rather spend that money on vacations or a bigger house.

So - how many legal US citizens genuinely are not able to have health coverage because they cannot afford it?

Answer - not as many as you think.

Next question - How much money are you PERSONALLY willing to shell out of your OWN pocket to offer quality healthcare to people you don't know - people who may lead lifestyles that are incredibly detrimental to their health, or lifestyles you would not knowingly support?

See, it's not all about what you can GET - it's also about what you're willing to GIVE. What are YOU willing to spend on OTHER PEOPLE'S health?

5% of your pay? 20%? What? What's your cutoff point? And WHY do you have a cutoff point? If even ONE PERSON'S death is so incredibly important to you, why aren't you out doing something about it RIGHT THIS MINUTE? Why aren't you out volunteering at a local non profit health clinic? What are you doing for your neighbors to improve their health today?

Someone will have to pay for all of this. That someone isn't someone ELSE. It's you. And it's going to hit your pocket in ways you never dreamed of.

Does it really matter how many people have no healthcare because they simply can't afford it? Even if it's 5 people, that's way too many.

I'm willing to spend the money we already spend on health insurance (which, of course, is not to mention the amount my wife's employer pays for our insurance) plus a little extra for everyone to have insurance.

I'll never understand why conservatives bring up this argument all the time. Great, so it'll cost me a little extra, let's do it. Why do you guys always assume we don't want to pay more to get things like this? It seems to me it's the republicans who are always blabbering on about not wanting to pay any more of their "hard-earned" money.

 

[Magic Man]

for those who support nationalized health care, how do you propose to make people accountable for preventable health conditions? Or do you think people should have no responsibility for taking care of themselves?

What does that have to do with anything? Yes, some people are going to be unhealthy who could be healthy. Oh well. I help pay for police for people who do dangerous and stupid things, too. Oh well. You really need to realize that life's not fair.

 

[Magic Man]

a debate on expansive healthcare changes with this Congress and this President seems like the most immature, irresponsible and irrational thing to do right now.

Only if you forget that there are millions of people who should have access to healthcare, but don't. Sure, there are other things going on, too, that need our attention, but if you were one of those who didn't have health insurance and needed it, you'd probably think this was quite mature, responsible and rational to do right now.

And considering the media and my fellow liberal citizens have gone hog**** nuts on taking every opportunity to paint anyone with a voice of dissent as a bigot and then walk away like they actually said something important. This debate is a fool's paradise.

See, I expect this kind of wacked-out stuff from conservatives, but not from you. Not everyone with a voice of dissent is a bigot, and no one's trying to make it out that way. You should catch up on the issue. The issue is that people are dissenting on this issue simply because they don't like Obama or Democrats. For the most part, they have no basis for their dissent, which is when the claims of racism and bigotry come out justifiably. Of course, there are people with good, legitimate concerns on the issue, but they're not the kind of people you'll find being called bigots.

I can't believe others who so nonchalantly state, "Oh, we need universal healthcare" when they can't even fully explain what they mean!

Have you actually talked to people like this or are you making people up now? I haven't heard of anyone who doesn't know what universal healthcare is who also supports it.

 

[gnomon]

Only if you forget that there are millions of people who should have access to healthcare, but don't. Sure, there are other things going on, too, that need our attention, but if you were one of those who didn't have health insurance and needed it, you'd probably think this was quite mature, responsible and rational to do right now.



See, I expect this kind of wacked-out stuff from conservatives, but not from you. Not everyone with a voice of dissent is a bigot, and no one's trying to make it out that way. You should catch up on the issue. The issue is that people are dissenting on this issue simply because they don't like Obama or Democrats. For the most part, they have no basis for their dissent, which is when the claims of racism and bigotry come out justifiably. Of course, there are people with good, legitimate concerns on the issue, but they're not the kind of people you'll find being called bigots.



Have you actually talked to people like this or are you making people up now? I haven't heard of anyone who doesn't know what universal healthcare is who also supports it.

I support open access to healthcare. I just have a hard time trusting that this Congress can do effectively and efficiently legislate such healthcare.

My problems with the nature of the debate extend to the media, primarily, and many of the discussions I see on the forums. Not so much this one but a very large religious forum, which I won't name, that I've been involved with as well. Actually the fact that the inanity around Joe Wilson is pretty much nonexistent on this forum makes me rather happy. In the media, the debate has been injected with racist overtones when not only should it not be there but the media is manufacturing the debate that way. Both sides. When you consider that most people in this country are not like us forum freaks you realize that information on issues is pretty much learned by the people through the MSM.

I admit that I cannot give out details to the way health care should be. Which is why I've stayed away from the debates. Health care is an important topic and does need to be addressed. I'm not dismissing the topic. I'm stating that I'm dubious about the people, the legislators, record of trust and intelligence to handle this issue. I'm also curious as to why, on many matters, the issue is being laid at the feet of the President. Sure he will have to sign off on any legislation but it's the 635 lawmakers that will be defining the legislation.

As I said, I'm trying to come to grips with the way the pharmaceutical industry works to start. After learning that both my father and a coworker are charged ridiculous amounts of money for cortisone shots to treat arthritis, one of whom has Medicare and the other private insurance, I wonder why the costs are so high to begin with.

 

[Kathryn]

I find it so ironic that people who make little or no money are the ones who are the first to cry out, "I'd give other people money for their healthcare - IF I HAD ANY MONEY TO GIVE!"

The thing is - we already DO support the healthcare of others through our taxes. Medicare, Medicaid, the VA (such bastions of excellence!) - not to mention that those of us who carry health insurance are already paying for other people's health care in THOSE payments as well, because hospitals and doctors write off so much indigent care and bad debt and tack those costs onto the bills for OUR healthcare that get passed on to us and to our insurance companies.

There ain't no free lunch. Someone is going to pay - and I have never seen or heard of a government agency or program that came in at or under budget. They grow about like that Loony Tunes cartoon where Tweety Bird drinks the Dr Heckle/Mr Hyde formula and morphs into that gigantic bird.

If you honestly think that the tax dollars to pay for health insurance for every single American who doesn't provide their own are only coming from those who make over $250,000 a year...wow, all I can say is "Hellooooo...anybody in there...?"

 

[Storm]

I find it so ironic that people who make little or no money are the ones who are the first to cry out, "I'd give other people money for their healthcare - IF I HAD ANY MONEY TO GIVE!"

I think you need to reread my post, if you read it at all.

 

[Gentoo]

Mine as well...

 

[Kathryn]

I think you need to reread my post, if you read it at all.

I did read your post. Do you donate any of your funds (at least 3%) to a healthcare-related cause? That's assuming that national healthcare would actually only increase taxes and costs to citizens by 3% - where did you get that optimistic figure?

Countries that pay higher tax rates per GPD than the US:

49.9 percent Denmark
Sweden
Netherlands
Italy
Norway
Belgium
Finland
Luxembourg
France
Austria
Greece
Germany
Ireland
Canada
NewZealand
Spain
Britain
Switzerland
Portugal
Iceland
Malaysia
29.7 percent United States

A huge chunk of many of these countries' taxes are directly contributable to government-subsidized health care.