Spain -Al Andalus

[kai]

How do people view the Islamic period in Spain ? in another thread i called it an occupation, TahaN said the Muslims were there because they were welcomed and asked to be there.

Without turning it into a slanging match and trying to keep it historical, what justification is there in either claim?


Tariq ibn Ziyad or Taric bin Zeyad (Arabic: طارق بن زياد‎, d. 720), known in Spanish history and legend as Taric el Tuerto (Taric the one-eyed), was a Berber Muslim and Umayyad general who led the conquest of Visigothic Hispania in 711 under the orders of the Umayyad Caliph Al-Walid I. According to the historian Ibn Khaldoun, Tariq Ibn Ziyad was from a Berber tribe of Algeria. Tariq ibn Ziyad is considered to be one of the most important military commanders in Iberian history. He was initially the deputy of Musa ibn Nusair in North Africa, and was sent by his superior to launch the first thrust of a conquest of the kingom of Hispania (comprising modern Spain and Portugal). Some claim that he was invited to intervene by the heirs of the Visigothic King, Wittiza, in the Visigothic civil war.


Tariq ibn Ziyad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

originaly posted by TashaN
It wasn't an occupation. The people of that land welcomed them with open armed. In fact, it was the people of that land who asked for help from the Muslims.

originaly posted by Lava
Islamic armies did invade kingdoms to stop their injustice systems that oppress and enslave poor people. therefor it was only leaders and his soldiers who stood against them but not public. they did not go place to make people convert Islam. they went to change cruel system of kings, dictators and tirans. your written history

keeping it in a historical light do we have as TashaN and Lava claim Islamic expansion in the Iberian peinsular at the behest of the people there,or to protect them form harm or persecution or is this just invasion and occupation.




and folks please remember this is not an "attack Islam" thread but a genuine enquiry stemmimg from discussions concerning the spread of Islam and Christianity through History i am in no way being critical of Islam in my stance just critical of the historical portrayal of Islamic expansion being somehow "philanthropic"

 

[sandandfoam]

How do people view the Islamic period in Spain ?

Hi Kai,

I'm not sure where my view comes from, but I always thought of the Islamic period in Spain as an Island of light in the ocean of backwardness and barbarity that was Europe at the time.

 

[kai]

Hi Kai,

I'm not sure where my view comes from, but I always thought of the Islamic period in Spain as an Island of light in the ocean of backwardness and barbarity that was Europe at the time.

Hi Stephen ,that may be true, but so was Rome before it, and even the Dark ages is debatable but was it an occupation?

 

[sandandfoam]

Hi Stephen ,that may be true, but so was Rome before it, and even the Dark ages is debatable but was it an occupation?

I don't think so. No more than the Vikings or the Normans occupied Ireland. I think these were conquests, after which merging rather than occupation happened. I think occupation needs maintenance of a seperateness between victor and vanquished.

 

[kai]

I don't think so. No more than the Vikings or the Normans occupied Ireland. I think these were conquests, after which merging rather than occupation happened. I think occupation needs maintenance of a seperateness between victor and vanquished.

so you dont think there was a seperateness? how does that fit with dhimmitude or the Reconquista

Reconquista - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[sandandfoam]

so you dont think there was a seperateness? how does that fit with dhimmitude or the Reconquista

Reconquista - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Let me preface by admitting that my knowledge here is very poor. I think the Reconquista introduced a seperateness not present in Muslim Iberia, I found evidence for my view in the wiki article linked, here:-

Earlier Christians fighting the Moors, such as Pelayo, could plausibly be described as natives opposing foreign invasion and conquest; however, by the time most parts of Muslim Iberia were (re)conquered by Christian forces, the Muslim population there was centuries old, and much of it undoubtedly composed of converted Iberians rather than migrants from other Muslim lands. Granada at the time of its conquest in 1492 was as thoroughly Arab and Muslim a city as were Cairo or Damascus at the time.

 

[kai]

Let me preface by admitting that my knowledge here is very poor. I think the Reconquista introduced a seperateness not present in Muslim Iberia, I found evidence for my view in the wiki article linked, here:-

i see where your coming from , is it any different then than romanised Britons or Anglicised Irish? let me put it this way, you may speak english and eat fish and chips and like a pint of ale but your not British are you. i hope you see where i am coming from.



Also from the link:

The Reconquista was a war with long periods of respite between the adversaries, partly for pragmatic reasons, and also due to infighting among the Christian kingdoms of the North spanning over seven centuries. Some populations practiced Islam or Christianity as their own religion during these centuries, so the identity of contenders changed over time.

 

[sandandfoam]

is it any different then than romanised Britons or Anglicised Irish?

I think it is the same thing. I see where you're at.

 

[.lava]

that's a good subject, Kai. before and after Muslims, how was Andalucia? i have information about what happened after, cos Ottoman Empire had to send ships their to save people. unfortunately all the Muslims were already killed but they managed to save Jewish people from massacre. they were living peacefully together for nearly 800 years.



PS: this conversation would also teach me. so excuse me if i ask questions. and no wiki miki pedia, por favor


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[.lava]

i see where your coming from , is it any different then than romanised Britons or Anglicised Irish? let me put it this way, you may speak english and eat fish and chips and like a pint of ale but your not British are you. i hope you see where i am coming from.



Also from the link:

The Reconquista was a war with long periods of respite between the adversaries, partly for pragmatic reasons, and also due to infighting among the Christian kingdoms of the North spanning over seven centuries. Some populations practiced Islam or Christianity as their own religion during these centuries, so the identity of contenders changed over time.

Kingdom means classes with sharp separation. that is opposite of Islam. there is no higher/lower class in Islam. many Kings therefor refused to accept it. cos they would lose power. it was impossible to complaint about king or his family in case they were injustice. they were never judged.


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[kai]

that's a good subject, Kai. before and after Muslims, how was Andalucia? i have information about what happened after, cos Ottoman Empire had to send ships their to save people. unfortunately all the Muslims were already killed but they managed to save Jewish people from massacre. they were living peacefully together for nearly 800 years.



PS: this conversation would also teach me. so excuse me if i ask questions. and no wiki miki pedia, por favor


.

Holla Lava Buenos días, if you will excuse me i will not judge the question of whether it was an occupation on what was iberia like before and after although Spain did rise to a major world player ,

i am well aware of the golden age , but i ask you this. Is it any different than the British calling India the jewel in the Crown?

What were the Muslims doing there? did they come to save people? or at the request of the people and just stayed? or was it just a conquest.


and its hard to quote from History books Lava thats why i use wiki

 

[.lava]

Holla Lava Buenos días, if you will excuse me i will not judge the question of whether it was an occupation on what was iberia like before and after although Spain did rise to a major world player ,

i am well aware of the golden age , but i ask you this. Is it any different than the British calling India the jewel in the Crown?

What were the Muslims doing there? did they come to save people? or at the request of the people and just stayed? or was it just a conquest.


and its hard to quote from History books Lava thats why i use wiki

did British made India a jewel or they made India jewel of the crown? the difference between is the answer of question "who benefited that jewel?"

Islamic armies went there to rule with justice and arise social qualities. that means there would not be any difference between rich and poor when it comes to rights of individuals. golden age was not lived by Muslims alone. everyone took advantage of it.

there is something wrong with wikipedia. seems like right and wrong blended. we need to follow up books of historians. i do not know who but i believe that is the right thing to do. i'd do some research to find respectful historians.


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[kai]

did British made India a jewel or they made India jewel of the crown? the difference between is the answer of question "who benefited that jewel?" if the Spanish thought it was a golden age why the recoquista that as we have seen took hundreds of years. what i mean is, it wasnt the Arab or Berbers right to make it their jewel any more than the british to make india their jewel( a poor comparison i know)

Islamic armies went there to rule with justice and arise social qualities. that means there would not be any difference between rich and poor when it comes to rights of individuals. golden age was not lived by Muslims alone. everyone took advantage of it.

there is something wrong with wikipedia. seems like right and wrong blended. we need to follow up books of historians. i do not know who but i believe that is the right thing to do. i'd do some research to find respectful historians.


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"Islamic armies went there to rule with justice and arise social qualities"

Islamic justice and social qualities should be chosen yes? not imposed by Armies. my question still stands Amigo ,was it an occupation? if not why not?

 

[Caladan]

In 711, the Muslim army crossed North Africa and reached Al Maghreb Alaqsa, the western edge, on the side of Gibraltar, and attempted, probably with the support of the Byzantine governor of Ceuta and the persecuted Jews in the urban centers to conquer Al-Andalus, the Visigoth kingdom in the Iberian peninsula, that included Spain and Portugal of today.​

After the fall of Toledo, the capital of the Visigoths kingdom, the Arabs reigned a full regime that reached the Pyreneans. Their momentum was stopped especially after Martel blocked their progress in Poitiers, some historians say that this battle turned out to be a successful defense that halted the progress into France and further into Europe in general (Historians have debated about the scale of importance of this battle and its meaning).​

To me the claim that the conquest of Al-Andalus does not involve military expansion is strange as the one I read here that the conquest was to bring justice.. it made me think of today's events..isn’t it like saying that the American operation in Iraq was to bring liberty?​

That being said, the cultural phenomena in Al-Andalus was a fascinating point of history.​

What was called the Renaissance of the 12th century was derived in great portion from the events of the earlier century. in 1085 the Union of the kingdoms of Castilia and Leon defeated the Muslims in Toledo. in 1099 the crusaders conquered Jerusalem in the holy land from the Seljuk Turks, and in 1100 they declared the Kingdom of Jerusalem lead by Baldwin the first.
the result of conquering Toledo were far reaching. monks flowed into it from every direction, apart from the exotic flavor, they were attracted mostly to the progress as well as mystery of the Arabic culture, and less for the declared intention to reject the 'false principals of the religion of the Muslims' that was put forward by archbishop Raymundo.
a great and monumental work began- passing into Latin the Arabic culture and through it the ancient Greco-Roman culture. thanks to the work of the translators, Christian Europe discovered and embraced the philosophy of Aristotle.

 

[.lava]

In 711, the Muslim army crossed North Africa and reached Al Maghreb Alaqsa, the western edge, on the side of Gibraltar, and attempted, probably with the support of the Byzantine governor of Ceuta and the persecuted Jews in the urban centers to conquer Al-Andalus, the Visigoth kingdom in the Iberian peninsula, that included Spain and Portugal of today.​

After the fall of Toledo, the capital of the Visigoths kingdom, the Arabs reigned a full regime that reached the Pyreneans. Their momentum was stopped especially after Martel blocked their progress in Poitiers, some historians say that this battle turned out to be a successful defense that halted the progress into France and further into Europe in general (Historians have debated about the scale of importance of this battle and its meaning).​

To me the claim that the conquest of Al-Andalus does not involve military expansion is strange as the one I read here that the conquest was to bring justice.. it made me think of today's events..isn’t it like saying that the American operation in Iraq was to bring liberty?​

That being said, the cultural phenomena in Al-Andalus was a fascinating point of history.​

What was called the Renaissance of the 12th century was derived in great portion from the events of the earlier century. in 1085 the Union of the kingdoms of Castilia and Leon defeated the Muslims in Toledo. in 1099 the crusaders conquered Jerusalem in the holy land from the Seljuk Turks, and in 1100 they declared the Kingdom of Jerusalem lead by Baldwin the first.
the result of conquering Toledo were far reaching. monks flowed into it from every direction, apart from the exotic flavor, they were attracted mostly to the progress as well as mystery of the Arabic culture, and less for the declared intention to reject the 'false principals of the religion of the Muslims' that was put forward by archbishop Raymundo.
a great and monumental work began- passing into Latin the Arabic culture and through it the ancient Greco-Roman culture. thanks to the work of the translators, Christian Europe discovered and embraced the philosophy of Aristotle.

i am confused. was it Jews who were ruling before Muslims? why would they kill them? i need to research on this one. i don't know.


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[Caladan]

lava,

Im not sure I understood you as well, what I said was, that there is an option that the Muslims received aid from the Byzantine governor of Ceuta, and the Jews of the region, who had an apparent interest to aid the Muslims- they were a persecuted minority that welcomed the change.

 

[Darkwater]

Well guys,I love South Spain & regularly drive up to visit Andalucia...My favourite city being Rhonda,where all the vanquished would regularly be thrown over the bridge between the two peaks the place is built on.

The Calif there tried to strike a deal,all his hundreds of wives & thousands of children were killed anyway..

In the nearby village of Teba,near the Fort d'stellar(fort of the stars),the main square is called the plaza de douglas(dubb glass/darkwater).A 10 ton slab of Aberdeen granite marks the grave of Gud Schir James off Douglass who died fighting the saracens there.

Some really nice paintings,I'm emailing UV some pictures of me there.......

The Dubb Glass was not there to improve his handwriting,yet the entire beautiful walled city of Rhonda is entirely Islamic built,the flower of life is everywhere.....

The Arabian Key just gets better & better.

 

[.lava]

lava,

Im not sure I understood you as well, what I said was, that there is an option that the Muslims received aid from the Byzantine governor of Ceuta, and the Jews of the region, who had an apparent interest to aid the Muslims- they were a persecuted minority that welcomed the change.

i sometimes confuse words, i am really sorry. i thought you were saying Muslims executed Jews with help of Byzantine. you know, execute, persecute...short circuit in my mind and fooled by cute..sorry and thank you for explaining


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[Makaveli]

Yes, they were welcomed in, just like how the English were welcomed to rule Ireland "peacefully" and with "justice" for 700 years.

They were welcomed in, just like the colonists were in the New World.

They were welcomed in, just like the United States has been "welcomed" in to "liberate" Iraq.

If they ruled with such peace and justice, why would the native Spaniards resist them with such zeal for hundreds of years, before they were able to drive them out with the Reconquista? You can argue that, while occupied, Spain was a paragon of innovation and tolerance in the world, and that Spain was better off occupied, just like I could argue that the enslavement of Africans led to their eventual betterment in the United States. Black people in America are doing infinitely better than their brethren in Africa, though the point could be made that if European colonialists did not take over Africa in the first place, it would be much better there than it is now, but that is for another debate.

The point is, it's base historical revisionism to say that the people welcomed a conquest of their land; why would they fight so zealously, for so long, if they were doing so well under Islamic rule?

 

[Darkwater]

I think that all denominations have been chucked off of the walls/bridge at Rhonda at one time or another.

The architecture,art & gardens are exquisite,all Moorish/Islamic.

Maybe even the nicest place in the Western World?Teba is more Celtic.I love driving down to Gibraltar too,or inland is beautiful the,plains.

I have always wanted to drive around to the west coast,to visit the place made famous by Charlton Heston in El Cid?this is the way I imagine it?