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Spanking Kids in Kansas

Thana

Lady
You said that the best and most prominent lessons we
learn are born of pain.

Trust me on this, I am a father. You don't need to strike kids to teach them things. There can be far more effective consequences than violent physical assault.

Violent physical assault on your children is counter-productive. Kids are incredibly smart and perceptive, they learn how to behave from you - so they will learn that violence is the answer from you.

Thereis nothing imaginary about non-violent consequences. If you raise your kids right, they will treasure your respect, and even a loss of that respect can be a devastating consequence to them. You have more weapons in your arsenal as a parent than physical violence. torture and pain.

Don't strike your kids, don't deliberately inflict pain upon them. There are far, far better ways to lead them into adulthood.


See, thats the thing.
You're calling a smack on the bottom 'Violent physical assault'
It is not.
You're calling it 'Torture'
It is not.

Friend, I don't know what path you've walked in life.
But I do know what real child abuse, torture and pain is.
A smack on the bottom is not it.

I'm not denying there are alternatives, But personally, I do not feel they are as effective. That's all.

And to clarify, I'm not talking about smacking my kid when they cheat on an exam. I'm talking about smacking a kid when they do something serious (Like, crossing the road, Talking to strangers, Touching the stove, Going out alone)

That's when I feel they need a real immediate consequence for those actions.
 

Bunyip

pro scapegoat
See, thats the thing.
You're calling a smack on the bottom 'Violent physical assault'
It is not.

Of course it is. The intention is to inflict pain - that is a violent physical assault.

Chidren should not be exempted from the laws against physical violence.

You're calling it 'Torture'
It is not.

When the intent is to inflict pain. yes itis difinitively torture.

Friend, I don't know what path you've walked in life.
But I do know what real child abuse, torture and pain is.
A smack on the bottom is not it.

I'm not denying there are alternatives, But personally, I do not feel they are as effective. That's all.

And to clarify, I'm not talking about smacking my kid when they cheat on an exam. I'm talking about smacking a kid when they do something serious (Like, crossing the road, Talking to strangers, Touching the stove, Going out alone)

That's when I feel they need a real immediate consequence for those actions.

There are always alternatives to physical violence Thana. Love and fear can not coexist.
 

Thana

Lady
Of course it is. The intention is to inflict pain - that is a violent physical assault.
Chidren should not be exempted from the laws against physical violence.
When the intent is to inflict pain. yes itis difinitively torture.
There are always alternatives to physical violence Thana. Love and fear can not coexist.

Well, Me and the Law disagree with you.
But to each their own :rolleyes:
 

Alceste

Vagabond
See, thats the thing.
You're calling a smack on the bottom 'Violent physical assault'
It is not.
You're calling it 'Torture'
It is not.

Friend, I don't know what path you've walked in life.
But I do know what real child abuse, torture and pain is.
A smack on the bottom is not it.

I'm not denying there are alternatives, But personally, I do not feel they are as effective. That's all.

And to clarify, I'm not talking about smacking my kid when they cheat on an exam. I'm talking about smacking a kid when they do something serious (Like, crossing the road, Talking to strangers, Touching the stove, Going out alone)

That's when I feel they need a real immediate consequence for those actions.

You want to hit children with objects for talking to strangers!?

Thana, for any lesson in life to be learned, the negative consequence for making the wrong choice has to be related to the choice that was made, and the connection between the two must be crystal clear. You can only achieve this by talking to your child, explaining why their actions were wrong, and if necessary, imposing a consequence that reflects something the child might experience when they strike out on their own in the world as adults. (Pro tip: adults generally don't receive beatings for making mistakes any more.)

Random beatings for ad hoc transgressions invented by a frightened, authoritarian parent who has not dealt with her own childhood abuse teaches them nothing, except to hate and fear their mother.
 

Thana

Lady
You want to hit children with objects for talking to strangers!?

Thana, for any lesson in life to be learned, the negative consequence for making the wrong choice has to be related to the choice that was made, and the connection between the two must be crystal clear. You can only achieve this by talking to your child, explaining why their actions were wrong, and if necessary, imposing a consequence that reflects something the child might experience when they strike out on their own in the world as adults. (Pro tip: adults generally don't receive beatings for making mistakes any more.)

Random beatings for ad hoc transgressions invented by a frightened, authoritarian parent who has not dealt with her own childhood abuse teaches them nothing, except to hate and fear their mother.

It's not going to be random, Of course I'm going to explain why they shouldn't do such and such and why I'm smacking them.

Goodness me. Just because you call it abuse does not make it so, And I know for a fact that The Department of Child Safety would absolutely agree with me.

They don't take kids away from parents who smack them. I wonder why, Since according to you, It's abuse.

Children are not Adults.
I don't know why you would think it's appropriate to treat children like adults.
 
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Alceste

Vagabond
It's not going to be random, Of course I'm going to explain why they shouldn't do such and such and why I'm smacking them.

Goodness me. Just because you call it abuse does not make it so, And I know for a fact that The Department of Child Safety would absolutely agree with me.

They don't take kids away from parents who smack them. I wonder why, Since according to you, It's abuse.

Children are not Adults.
I don't know why you would think it's appropriate to treat children like adults.

And I don't know why you want to smack children. I really don't. To me, it seems your position is the harder one to defend though, that all the research we've ever done on the subject of violence + children unambiguously affirms the instinctual gut feeling most of us realize as caregivers that it does them no good at all, and potentially great harm.

I'm glad you take comfort in the fact that it's still legal for you to beat children in your country, but I would remind you that a great many appalling behaviors have been legal at some point over the centuries.
 

Thana

Lady
And I don't know why you want to smack children. I really don't. To me, it seems your position is the harder one to defend though, given that all the research we've ever done on the subject of violence + children unambiguously affirms the instinctual gut feeling most of us realize as caregivers that it does them no good at all, and potentially great harm.

:shrug:

Not really. My parents were smacked when they were kids, Your parents probably were.
It's really not that big of a deal, Atleast to me. It's just a tool to use when teaching kids.

And the research I've done hasn't been particuarly helpful. It never mentions what the situations are, what instruments are used, how many times it happens etc. So I wouldn't call it conclusive, And neither have any of those who studied it, That I've found.

Either way, I think it's a personal choice for each parent to make and I think it should be respected as their decision and left alone.
 

Alceste

Vagabond
:shrug:

Not really. My parents were smacked when they were kids, Your parents probably were.
It's really not that big of a deal, Atleast to me. It's just a tool to use when teaching kids.

And the research I've done hasn't been particuarly helpful. It never mentions what the situations are, what instruments are used, how many times it happens etc. So I wouldn't call it conclusive, And neither have any of those who studied it, That I've found.

Either way, I think it's a personal choice for each parent to make and I think it should be respected as their decision and left alone.

Well, I think it should be against the law, just as assaulting adults is illegal. It's not your personal choice whether or not it's ok to hit other people. We all (all of us other people) get a say in that. I don't see any reason children should not benefit from the same societal protection from physical assault that adults generally enjoy. And you haven't given me one, except to say it's legal, like slavery once was and how marital rape and honour killing still is in many countries.

Edited to add: I don't leave people who hit children alone, nor should I. And they deserve noone's respect for it. Pity, perhaps.
 
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beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Hitting anything is an act of violence. Hitting a defenseless child is child abuse.
 

MysticSang'ha

Big Squishy Hugger
Premium Member
I have found kids who are spanked are no more likely to pay attention or to be well-behaved than kids who are not spanked.

Most often, the parents who discover their kids did not behave well in class who tended to lose their own self-control in public were the ones who spanked.

As a child, I was hit, kicked, and belted by my father, and the only result was that I feared for my life around him. My brother used to lock himself in his room with a knife when my dad would lose his temper. Nobody knew when he would be mad, and what he was angry at always changed depending on if he had a bad day.

My mother spanked me less than a handful of times. It was never from punishment, was only a couple of smacks on the bum with her open hand, and was only done when she lost her temper and didn't know what else to do. Completely ineffective.

Eventually my dad laid off me when he raised his hand to smack me when I was 15, and I stared at him without fear.

My mom eventually stopped hitting when she discovered natural consequences and leading by example are the most effective way of parenting. AND, she found ways to manage her stress better.

My own kids respond best to reason. By far - far and away - it's better than reactive parenting. When I teach, I am clear about the rules of participation, and if those rules aren't followed, a simple reminder about the rules, and then they aren't allowed to participate. It works beautifully.

When I was growing up, a teacher used to lock her door to dance class if people were late. Even if they were late one minute, she locked the door the minute class started. People learned very quickly to be in class ready to go once the clock was on the hour. She never yelled, threatened, or physically grabbed any kids to get into class. She never even gave a warning. She simply closed the door and locked it on the hour.

Very very effective.

The overwhelming majority of studies on the effects of spanking suggest that it's ineffective at best, and abusive at worst. Parents are allowed to be ineffective and make mistakes, and I live in a culture where spanking is normalized. But to suggest that spanking is integral to parenting is something I argue against.

It's like telling parents who think it's vital to let a baby cry it out for sleep training, or "they'll never have good sleep habits"....that's a myth. Though those folks will never be convinced that kids develop into circadian rhythms of sleep on their own while they are still developing physically.

People will cling to the myth that spanking is a must until parents get the guts to refrain from it. Then they discover it isn't as necessary as they and their family once thought.
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
I have found kids who are spanked are no more likely to pay attention or to be well-behaved than kids who are not spanked.

Most often, the parents who discover their kids did not behave well in class who tended to lose their own self-control in public were the ones who spanked.

As a child, I was hit, kicked, and belted by my father, and the only result was that I feared for my life around him. My brother used to lock himself in his room with a knife when my dad would lose his temper. Nobody knew when he would be mad, and what he was angry at always changed depending on if he had a bad day.

My mother spanked me less than a handful of times. It was never from punishment, was only a couple of smacks on the bum with her open hand, and was only done when she lost her temper and didn't know what else to do. Completely ineffective.

Eventually my dad laid off me when he raised his hand to smack me when I was 15, and I stared at him without fear.

My mom eventually stopped hitting when she discovered natural consequences and leading by example are the most effective way of parenting. AND, she found ways to manage her stress better.

My own kids respond best to reason. By far - far and away - it's better than reactive parenting. When I teach, I am clear about the rules of participation, and if those rules aren't followed, a simple reminder about the rules, and then they aren't allowed to participate. It works beautifully.

When I was growing up, a teacher used to lock her door to dance class if people were late. Even if they were late one minute, she locked the door the minute class started. People learned very quickly to be in class ready to go once the clock was on the hour. She never yelled, threatened, or physically grabbed any kids to get into class. She never even gave a warning. She simply closed the door and locked it on the hour.

Very very effective.

The overwhelming majority of studies on the effects of spanking suggest that it's ineffective at best, and abusive at worst. Parents are allowed to be ineffective and make mistakes, and I live in a culture where spanking is normalized. But to suggest that spanking is integral to parenting is something I argue against.

It's like telling parents who think it's vital to let a baby cry it out for sleep training, or "they'll never have good sleep habits"....that's a myth. Though those folks will never be convinced that kids develop into circadian rhythms of sleep on their own while they are still developing physically.

People will cling to the myth that spanking is a must until parents get the guts to refrain from it. Then they discover it isn't as necessary as they and their family once thought.

Best post in this thread, by far.
 

Thana

Lady
Well, I think it should be against the law, just as assaulting adults is illegal. It's not your personal choice whether or not it's ok to hit other people. We all (all of us other people) get a say in that. I don't see any reason children should not benefit from the same societal protection from physical assault that adults generally enjoy. And you haven't given me one, except to say it's legal, like slavery once was and how marital rape and honour killing still is in many countries.

Edited to add: I don't leave people who hit children alone, nor should I. And they deserve noone's respect for it. Pity, perhaps.

Fine :shrug:

But it's not assault, It's not abuse. These are facts, Whether people like them or not. :)

And I just have to say, You putting a smack on the bottom in the same boat as slavery and rape, Well.. I mean, That's worrying and probably offensive to people who have been through that awful ordeal.
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Fine :shrug:

But it's not assault, It's not abuse. These are facts, Whether people like them or not. :)

Facts of what?

And I just have to say, You putting a smack on the bottom in the same boat as slavery and rape, Well.. I mean, That's worrying and probably offensive to people who have been through that awful ordeal.

I will agree with you there, but smacking anyone is an act of violence, and that's a fact.
 

Thana

Lady
I will agree with you there, but smacking anyone is an act of violence, and that's a fact.

If it were, Then it'd be illegal. Right?

Can you show any studies that indicate any benefits to physical punishment of children?


Just as there were studies done to show the negative impacts which smacking had on kids, there were studies done that showed that smacking did have a few positive effects. A psychology professor Marjorie Gunnoe, conducted the study and found that kids who were smacked before age 6 grew up to be more successful and furthermore that there was not enough evidence that could fully back up the claim that smacking actually harmed to kids. However, the study did show that kids who were smacked after the age of 6 were a far more likely to develop behavioural difficulties in later life, and were also more prone to get into fights.
When parents spank kids who are under the age of 6, they generally smack for a safety need. They may smack the hand of a child who is getting too close to a dangerous item, such as plug point or stove. They may spank a two year old’s bottom, when the child is making a beeline for a road or an unsafe area. This kind of smacking is done more as a means of protecting the child rather than humiliating him or asserting parental authority.


Smacked children more successful later in life, study finds - Telegraph
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Fine :shrug:

But it's not assault, It's not abuse. These are facts, Whether people like them or not. :)

And I just have to say, You putting a smack on the bottom in the same boat as slavery and rape, Well.. I mean, That's worrying and probably offensive to people who have been through that awful ordeal.
I presume then that any teacher who spanked my kid would be OK with my spanking him/her in front of the class. (I hope it's a her.)
 

Thana

Lady
I presume then that any teacher who spanked my kid would be OK with my spanking him/her in front of the class. (I hope it's a her.)

I'm talking about parents, But then again, I don't have much problem with corporal punishment, But I suppose that's a different debate.
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
If it were, Then it'd be illegal. Right?

Many schools have banned the practice, and if DCF gets wind of a parent smacking a child, they will intervene. Most states have a zero tolerance policy, and will remove the child from the home, and ask questions/investigate later. Seems like the safety of the child comes first. The system isn't perfect, but I can guarantee you Child Protective Services will take action if they suspect "smacking", ESPECIALLY with a belt, cane, wooden spoon, and whatever other evil device you people seem to condone and even encourage.
 
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