Spanking Kids in Kansas

[Mister_T]

Well yes, of course spanking is intended to cause pain, the intention is to strike the child and to discipline them using physical violence.

I don't see the gray area here.

In the case of a wife swatting at her husbands hand - if it is in jest, then it may not be abusive. It is is intended to discipline the husband by striking him, then it is abuse.

Why strike if not to cause pain? What possible lesson could there be in striking a child in a manner that they do not mind?

Pain is a plausible consequence of spanking, no one is denying that. The intention of spanking, is/should be discipline. I can gurantee that the wife-pot roast swatting is for discipline. I'll go even further to say that if anyone would label that under actual physical abuse, I feel they are severely over-reacting, as would law enforcement, probably.

 

[kashmir]

You're really going to call a swat on the hand with the intention to discipline abuse?

Do you think if he called the cops, They'd arrest her? Or do you think they'd tell him not to waste their time and to buck up.

Come on.. Honestly, This is getting ridiculous. What's next?

In the usa, during a domestic call, you do not even have to touch the person to go to jail.
The cops see one person motioning with the intent to strike another, they going to jail.
There's a huge reason behind it, not important to discuss, but its way over dramatized by the law.

 

[Thana]

Thana you made several comments that specifically stated that pain was the consequence.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I just said.

And frankly the example of the wife swatting at the husbands hand is deceptive

Not really, But even if it was, So? Is deception now abuse? Seriously, where do you drawn the line?

- you were advocating for the application of pain as a learning tool.

I didn't advocate anything.
I simply stated and defended my stance, And said the choice was up to the parents.

 

[Mister_T]

And frankly the example of the wife swatting at the husbands hand is deceptive

And if I also may be so frank, this statement is just a straw man.

 

[Bunyip]

Pain is a plausible consequence of spanking, no one is denying that. The intention of spanking, is/should be discipline. I can gurantee that the wife-pot roast swatting is for discipline. I'll go even further to say that if anyone would label that under actual physical abuse, I feel they are severely over-reacting, as would law enforcement, probably.

You seem confused. What is being discussed is the use of pain as a training tool for chidren, not whatever you and your wife choose to do.

You are the party who has presented the strawman.

What happens between you and your wife is consensual.

 

[Bunyip]

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I just said.



Not really, But even if it was, So? Is deception now abuse? Seriously, where do you drawn the line?



I didn't advocate anything.
I simply stated and defended my stance, And said the choice was up to the parents.

Where I am drawing the line is in the use of pain as a training tool for children.

 

[Debater Slayer]

What do you bet someone will come along and defend corporal punishment by appealing to the "parents know what's best for their children" mantra or a similar argument without any regard for the evidence indicating the harms of physically punishing children?

 

[Sunstone]

What do you bet someone will come along and defend corporal punishment by appealing to the "parents know what's best for their children" mantra or a similar argument without any regard for the evidence indicating the harms of physically punishing children?

I think you should be spanked, and I think Heather should be the one to do it, too. That's what I think.

That's my final, informed opinion on this matter.

 

[dawny0826]

What do you bet someone will come along and defend corporal punishment by appealing to the "parents know what's best for their children" mantra or a similar argument without any regard for the evidence indicating the harms of physically punishing children?

I do know what's best for my children. Some parents may not act in the best interest of their children, but, I sure as hell do.

My argument is that the very few swift pops that I've administered over the years are not comparable to the type of punishment that comprises your statistics, yet, there are some here who without taking situational context into consideration, assume that all parents who do not object to spanking are abusive.

I cannot relate to a parent who would spank their child out of anger or with the intention to scare them into respecting authority or to hurt them.

I have however, popped my child on the butt if a behavior was repeated after exhausting rationalization and other forms of discipline/guidance. In my household, this type of discipline has usually beem a last resort and more specfically a measure to drive home the point that a behavior is dangerous.

When my youngest was 2-3 years old, she had a fascination with the electrical outlets. I plugged my electrical outlets with plastic plugs for the safety of my children. She would find a way to work them out of the sockets and was rather sneaky about it. She was well watched. She was just so determined, she took advantage of opportunities to work those plugs out. Each time, she was reprimanded with a firm "no" and removed from the immediate area.

But, one day, she had something metal in her hand...I don't even remember what it was...but...she was headed towards an open electrical outlet with this object. I scooped her up, popped her butt and told her no. That ended her "fun" with electrical outlets.

I didn't pop her to hurt her. I was scared to death that she was going to shock herself. She was so determined - she needed something else to get her attention. The only thing I did differently this time, was pop her butt. It's okay if she was scared in that moment. She needed to be, because sticking things in electrical outlets is dangerous and I was concerned FOR her safety.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I do know what's best for my children. Some parents may not act in the best interest of their children, but, I sure as hell do.

My argument is that the very few swift pops that I've administered over the years are not comparable to the type of punishment that comprises your statistics, yet, there are some here who without taking situational context into consideration, assume that all parents who do not object to spanking are abusive.

I cannot relate to a parent who would spank their child out of anger or with the intention to scare them into respecting authority or to hurt them.

I have however, popped my child on the butt if a behavior was repeated after exhausting rationalization and other forms of discipline/guidance. In my household, this type of discipline has usually beem a last resort and more specfically a measure to drive home the point that a behavior is dangerous.

When my youngest was 2-3 years old, she had a fascination with the electrical outlets. I plugged my electrical outlets with plastic plugs for the safety of my children. She would find a way to work them out of the sockets and was rather sneaky about it. She was well watched. She was just so determined, she took advantage of opportunities to work those plugs out. Each time, she was reprimanded with a firm "no" and removed from the immediate area.

But, one day, she had something metal in her hand...I don't even remember what it was...but...she was headed towards an open electrical outlet with this object. I scooped her up, popped her butt and told her no. That ended her "fun" with electrical outlets.

I didn't pop her to hurt her. I was scared to death that she was going to shock herself. She was so determined - she needed something else to get her attention. The only thing I did differently this time, was pop her butt. It's okay if she was scared in that moment. She needed to be, because sticking things in electrical outlets is dangerous and I was concerned FOR her safety.

Okay, let's go through this bit by bit, and feel free to correct me if my representation of your argument is wrong.

I completely understand how someone would be scared to death in a situation like that. I love children, and in all honesty, I think I would also try to do anything I could to stop a 2- or 3-year-old from hurting herself in such a situation.

That said, wasn't there any way to attract your daughter's attention except spanking her? If the purpose of the spanking hadn't been to inflict pain on her, then why wouldn't just grabbing her and moving her away have worked in that case?

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Pain is a plausible consequence of spanking, no one is denying that. The intention of spanking, is/should be discipline. I can gurantee that the wife-pot roast swatting is for discipline. I'll go even further to say that if anyone would label that under actual physical abuse, I feel they are severely over-reacting, as would law enforcement, probably.

I look at your example as problematic for one reason: you are an adult who can define your own boundaries and enforce it. If you draw the line on physical contact at swatting a hand, you have a right to say it and to end a relationship based on such. And if your wife continues to disregard your personal boundaries, you ethically can separate based on that and that alone.

A child has no right in a family that does not respect a child's personal physical boundaries.

Like many, the debate of spanking often comes up in our culture because it's normalized, and there are parents who don't spank their children, and there are opinions about that decision to not spank. I often times wonder how kids are able to process the discussion about "good touch, bad touch" when it comes to define their boundaries and combating sexual abuse, but then should shut their mouths and take a swat even if they think it's a "bad touch."

Of course, adults are able to differentiate the two. But how are kids able to process accepting a swat on the butt that makes them cry and feel they don't have ownership of their bodies, but then speak up and verbalize they were touched on their butt by an adult (whether it's the same adult or a different one), that makes them feel they don't have ownership of their bodies?

Is it likely that a child who is spanked does not believe he or she can speak up about sexual abuse when it happens?

 

[dawny0826]

Okay, let's go through this bit by bit, and feel free to correct me if my representation of your argument is wrong.

I completely understand how someone would be scared to death in a situation like that. I love children, and in all honesty, I think I would also try to do anything I could to stop a 2- or 3-year-old from hurting herself in such a situation.

That said, wasn't there any way to attract your daughter's attention except spanking her? If the purpose of the spanking wasn't to inflict pain on her, then why wouldn't just grabbing her and moving her away have worked in that case?

I had already done this multiple times and on multiple occasions. Each time, she was picked up and removed from the area and was told firmly "no". Clearly, it didn't deter her from her fascination with the elctrical outlet.

When she did it again, and this time heading towards it with an object to place inside of it, which was potentially dangerous - enough was enough. I popped her to drive the point home. Clearly, my firm "no nos" and diversions weren't effective before.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I had already done this multiple times and on multiple occasions. Each time, she was picked up and removed from the area and was told firmly "no". Clearly, it didn't deter her from her fascination with the elctrical outlet.

When she did it again, and this time heading towards it with an object to place inside of it, which was potentially dangerous - enough was enough. I popped her to drive the point home. It's dangerous. Clearly, my firm "no nos" and diversions weren't effective.

I would argue against this, but for the sake of honesty, I don't think I could fully understand how a parent would feel in a situation like that, having never been one myself. Speaking abstractly about a topic like this can only go so far.

I'll let someone else do this if they're inclined to, but I'd have to have more experience before doing it myself.

 

[Father Heathen]

I don't think I could fully understand how a parent would feel in a situation like that, having never been one myself.

Exactly.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

I would argue against this, but for the sake of honesty, I don't think I could fully understand how a parent would feel in a situation like that, having never been one myself. Speaking abstractly about a topic like this can only go so far.

I'll let someone else do this if they're inclined to, but I'd have to have more experience before doing it myself.

My son had a fascination with outlets. I gave him an old unplugged power strip that was never going to be used again as a toy, and covered the rest of the outlets in the house. It satisfied his curiosity.

 

[Father Heathen]

Is it likely that a child who is spanked does not believe he or she can speak up about sexual abuse when it happens?

What a bizarre non sequitur.

 

[dawny0826]

I would argue against this, but for the sake of honesty, I don't think I could fully understand how a parent would feel in a situation like that, having never been one myself. Speaking abstractly about a topic like this can only go so far.

I'll let someone else do this if they're inclined to, but I'd have to have more experience before doing it myself.

Though, I appreciate your honesty, there are others who certainly wouldn't restrain themselves from telling me what I should have done differently.

 

[Thana]

My son had a fascination with outlets. I gave him an old unplugged power strip that was never going to be used again as a toy, and covered the rest of the outlets in the house. It satisfied his curiosity.

And what if his curiousity was not satisfied? What if he kept finding ways to bypass the coverings on the outlets? What if he kept trying, over and over, no matter what you did or said?

And then what if at one point, He grabs something metal and heads toward an outlet?

I think there are situations that call for a smack, Situations that no other form of discipline can swiftly and effectively get the message across and help prevent your child from getting hurt.

 

[dawny0826]

My son had a fascination with outlets. I gave him an old unplugged power strip that was never going to be used again as a toy, and covered the rest of the outlets in the house. It satisfied his curiosity.

For some kids, Heather, even this wouldn't deter them from the behavior. What worked for your son would have opened the door to additional risk to my daughters.

My daughters were also curious about my cigarette lighters. Should I have provided them an empty cigarette lighter to curtail their curiosity?

 

[Father Heathen]

My son had a fascination with outlets. I gave him an old unplugged power strip that was never going to be used again as a toy, and covered the rest of the outlets in the house. It satisfied his curiosity.

But does that really establish in their mind that "power outlet = bad"?
By giving him a power strip to play with, you've established such an item as a harmless plaything.
The point of punishment (spanking, time-out, etc.) is to use negative association as a deterrent.