Spanking Kids in Kansas

[MysticSang'ha]

Is a parent who chooses corporeal discipline because they consider it to be the best course of action given a situation - abusive?

Depends on the degree of the punishment, the age of the child, stage of development, how vulnerable the child is, and how resilient the child is. At best, spanking has been shown to be ineffective and neutral in it's ability to establish correct behavior long term. At worst, it not only humiliates a child and/or creates bitterness, resentment, and lack of respect, but can result in injury or medical intervention.

I've been looking at a comprehensive 20 year study done by the World Health Organization that sums up the various ways of child maltreatment and it's economic, social, and medical impact they have on people throughout their lives. It's a long study, but they do focus on not just corporal punishment, but sexual abuse, emotional abuse, and neglect in the various cultures and religious communities as well.

After I'm done, I'm moving on to the AAP and NIMH to round out the picture as according to what's done in the states.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Depends on the degree of the punishment, the age of the child, stage of development, how vulnerable the child is, and how resilient the child is. At best, spanking has been shown to be ineffective and neutral in it's ability to establish correct behavior long term. At worst, it not only humiliates a child and/or creates bitterness, resentment, and lack of respect, but can result in injury or medical intervention.

I've been looking at a comprehensive 20 year study done by the World Health Organization that sums up the various ways of child maltreatment and it's economic, social, and medical impact they have on people throughout their lives. It's a long study, but they do focus on not just corporal punishment, but sexual abuse, emotional abuse, and neglect in the various cultures and religious communities as well.

After I'm done, I'm moving on to the AAP and NIMH to round out the picture as according to what's done in the states.

Thank you. Excellent response. :yes:

 

[Debater Slayer]

Is a parent who chooses corporeal discipline because they consider it to be the best course of action given a situation - abusive?

I consider some instances of my mother's using corporal punishment to have been abusive, but in no way do I view her as an abusive person or doubt that she has always had my best interests in mind when doing something.

I think people can engage in abusive behavior while not being intentionally abusive. That doesn't necessarily mean they are abusive people; sometimes such behavior merely stems from being misinformed, ill-tempered, or overly emotional. So I would say some parents who use corporal punishment are abusive people and some aren't, but I lean toward the view that the behavior itself is, at least usually, abusive and more harmful than beneficial, if it is beneficial at all.

 

[dawny0826]

Depends on the degree of the punishment, the age of the child, stage of development, how vulnerable the child is, and how resilient the child is.

No ****!

Do you seriously feel as if I needed this education? I asked Alceste a specific question and in context to our prior exchange.

At best, spanking has been shown to be ineffective and neutral in it's ability to establish correct behavior long term. At worst, it not only humiliates a child and/or creates bitterness, resentment, and lack of respect, but can result in injury or medical intervention.

Then, how the hell do you explain the phenomena which manifests in my ******* peer group, Heather? We were spanked as kids!! How do you explain the fact that we aren't bitter, resentful, emotionally scarred people who lack respect?

We're on the same page as to the impacts of child abuse.

Tell me, what's the difference between my peer group and those that comprise your studies? Is it not possible that parents who rationally choose corporeal discipline can raise normal, emotionally healthy children!?

I've been looking at a comprehensive 20 year study done by the World Health Organization that sums up the various ways of child maltreatment and it's economic, social, and medical impact they have on people throughout their lives. It's a long study, but they do focus on not just corporal punishment, but sexual abuse, emotional abuse, and neglect in the various cultures and religious communities as well.

Good for you!

After I'm done, I'm moving on to the AAP and NIMH to round out the picture as according to what's done in the states.

Fantastic! Would you like a cookie?

 

[dawny0826]

I consider some instances of my mother's using corporal punishment to have been abusive, but in no way do I view her as an abusive person or doubt that she has always had my best interests in mind when doing something.

I think people can engage in abusive behavior while not being intentionally abusive. That doesn't necessarily mean they are abusive people; sometimes such behavior merely stems from being misinformed, ill-tempered, or overly emotional. So I would say some parents who use corporal punishment are abusive people and some aren't, but I lean toward the view that the behavior itself is, at least usually, abusive and more harmful than beneficial, if it is beneficial at all.

Talk to me when you have children of your own, DS.

Our parents spanked us and we're fine. In fact, we're appreciative of their guidance and discipline.

I've been waiting for a link to a study to suggest that we're somehow nuts.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Talk to me when you have children of your own, DS.

Our parents spanked us and we're fine. In fact, we're appreciative of their guidance and discipline.

I've been waiting for a link to a study to suggest that we're somehow nuts.

With all due respect, Dawny, I can see a measure of condescension seeping into your posts at this point. I can only hope that you don't always take the same approach when something--like children's misbehaving, for example--makes you lose your temper.

Have a great day.

 

[dawny0826]

With all due respect, Dawny, I can see a measure of condescension seeping into your posts at this point. I can only hope that you don't always take the same approach when something--like children's misbehaving, for example--makes you lose your temper.

Have a great day.

I'm human, DS. I get angry.

But, I've never hit my children out of anger and I never would.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

No ****!

Do you seriously feel as if I needed this education? I asked Alceste a specific question and in context to our prior exchange.



Then, how the hell do you explain the phenomena which manifests in my ******* peer group, Heather? We were spanked as kids!! How do you explain the fact that we aren't bitter, resentful, emotionally scarred people who lack respect?

We're on the same page as to the impacts of child abuse.

Tell me, what's the difference between my peer group and those that comprise your studies? Is it not possible that parents who rationally choose corporeal discipline can raise normal, emotionally healthy children!?



Good for you!



Fantastic! Would you like a cookie?

Yikes.....that was sudden.

I've given my thoughts throughout the thread, and in no way have I ever tried to corner you into any allegation that you have abused your kids in any way. In fact, I'm surprised that you think I would say that about you, given the many conversations we've had about parenting through the years.

I'm looking through what the science says, because I'm interested. I've given my personal experience as my arguments, and thought I'd try a different approach. Not to throw something at you personally.

So you can lower your level of hostility toward me before I engage in this conversation with you again. Your response to me was completely uncalled for. So until next time, no thanks.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm human, DS. I get angry.

But, I've never hit my children out of anger and I never would.

You haven't; others have. I know my mother has, as I mentioned in a previous post. When I say that I lean toward considering the behavior to be abusive, it's not in a vacuum or because I want to call people's behavior abusive for the heck of it. I believe I have good reasons for my view, just as you believe you have good reasons for yours.

Earlier in this thread, I refused to judge your actions in thr situation where your daughter was playing with electrical outlets because I didn't believe I had enough insight into your feelings at the time to do that accurately. I don't think it's too much to expect the same in return.

 

[Father Heathen]

With all due respect, Dawny, I can see a measure of condescension seeping into your posts at this point.

Funny, I've noticed a greater measure of condescension from you and your lot long before this point.

I can only hope that you don't always take the same approach when something--like children's misbehaving, for example--makes you lose your temper.

Dawn is understandably frustrated and insulted by some of the posts directed at her, and I find your insinuation that this somehow reflects upon her parenting to be rather disgusting.

 

[Debater Slayer]

Funny, I've noticed a greater measure of condescension from you and your lot long before this point.

"Your lot"? Sorry, FH. I only speak for myself; at least I've never tried to respond to posts in this thread on anyone's behalf.

If you think I have made any condescending comments toward anyone in particular here, feel free to show them to me--if you can find any, that is.

Dawn is understandably frustrated and insulted by some of the posts directed at her, and I find your insinuation that this somehow reflects upon her parenting to be rather disgusting.

That's not what I said or intended to convey, but you're free to read my posts however you like.

I think it's hard to talk about a topic like this with emotionally charged posts being thrown around, though, so turning down the level of hostility a bit may be helpful.

 

[Alceste]

Funny, I've noticed a greater measure of condescension from you and your lot long before this point.



Dawn is understandably frustrated and insulted by some of the posts directed at her, and I find your insinuation that this somehow reflects upon her parenting to be rather disgusting.

It seems to me you are both a little over-emotional about this subject.

 

[Father Heathen]

It seems to me you are both a little over-emotional about this subject.

This coming from someone with a flair for melodramatic exaggerations and embellishment.

 

[dawny0826]

This coming from someone with a flair for melodramatic exaggerations and embellishment.

I'm done.

 

[psychoslice]

I predict that in the near future there will be more parents murdering their children, for simple reason that discipline was taken away, and them selves are a product of that generation, they just wont know how to handle a spoilt brat.

 

[Bunyip]

I predict that in the near future there will be more parents murdering their children, for simple reason that discipline was taken away, and them selves are a product of that generation, they just wont know how to handle a spoilt brat.

The assumption there is that physical violence is the only form of discipline, there are many other far more effective approaches.

Also, the countries with the strongest laws against corporal punishment tend to have far lower murder rates than does the US.

There are better ways to handle a spoilt brat than inflicting corporal punishment upon them, and the evidence suggests that corporal punishment is counter productive.

 

[psychoslice]

The assumption there is that physical violence is the only form of discipline, there are many other far more effective approaches.

Also, the countries with the strongest laws against corporal punishment tend to have far lower murder rates than does the US.

There are better ways to handle a spoilt brat than inflicting corporal punishment upon them, and the evidence suggests that corporal punishment is counter productive.

Well we will just have to wait and see what happens, but for now all I know is there are much more child crimes going on, and no respect for anyone else except themselves, I know their all not like that, but there is a hell of a lot that are, you would have to be blind not to see that.

 

[Bunyip]

Well we will just have to wait and see what happens, but for now all I know is there are much more child crimes going on, and no respect for anyone else except themselves, I know their all not like that, but there is a hell of a lot that are, you would have to be blind not to see that.

There is an Assyrian tablet from 2800 bc that makes almost exactly the same claim.

Most kids I know are pretty wonderful, respectful, caring and self disciplined. I am very proud of my son and his peers.

 

[Drolefille]

No ****!

Do you seriously feel as if I needed this education? I asked Alceste a specific question and in context to our prior exchange.



Then, how the hell do you explain the phenomena which manifests in my ******* peer group, Heather? We were spanked as kids!! How do you explain the fact that we aren't bitter, resentful, emotionally scarred people who lack respect?

I was spanked as a child, and it only made me fear my dad, not respect him. I love my dad, I really do, and in many ways we're very similar. We both have tempers and we both probably have ADHD (he's never been diagnosed.) But I hated him when he spanked me, and I've never "appreciated" it later growing up. When my younger brothers were spanked, my sister and I cried because they were crying. I think it probably contributed to my anger growing up, my temper as a teenager, etc. One thing alone doesn't destroy a person or make a person successful - in pretty much every other way my parents are awesome, they put us through private school and college and encouraged me to be myself. But I would probably be much closer to my father if he hadn't spanked me or my siblings as a child. To me, the spankings were abusive, even though my father isn't an abusive person in general.

What you're describing is anecdotal for a reason. What people will admit to friends doesn't always match what they will admit in an anonymous survey. Whether you've talked in depth about people's feelings for their parents when it came to spanking and whether they were honest to you about it, are only two reasons why your anecdotes don't match the data. It's also the fact that our memories do change as time passes, I don't think about my dad spanking me often, but I can look back and say its definitely affected me for the negative.

 

[Drolefille]

Well we will just have to wait and see what happens, but for now all I know is there are much more child crimes going on, and no respect for anyone else except themselves, I know their all not like that, but there is a hell of a lot that are, you would have to be blind not to see that.

One constant throughout history is that every generation thinks that the younger generation is more poorly behaved than theirs. No one denies that it (crimes by children) happens, but we do deny that it is "worse" than in previous generations and that a lack physical discipline is the cause of that.