Spanking Kids in Kansas

[dawny0826]

What you're describing is anecdotal for a reason. What people will admit to friends doesn't always match what they will admit in an anonymous survey. Whether you've talked in depth about people's feelings for their parents when it came to spanking and whether they were honest to you about it, are only two reasons why your anecdotes don't match the data. It's also the fact that our memories do change as time passes, I don't think about my dad spanking me often, but I can look back and say its definitely affected me for the negative.

The spankings that I received as a child didn't impact me negatively, not in the long-haul. To the contrary, I understand clearly how those lessons impacted me for the positive. I understood as a kid that my Mom was in the right.

I was spanked for back talk for than anything else. We laugh about it now. I was a disrespectful little turd at times. But, I am not, as a rule, a direspectful adult and neither is my husband.

We were raised quite comparably. Our mothers are so much alike it's laughable. What we also have in common is a closeness to our families. There's genuinely no resentment for the choices our parents made through discipline.

I'm content being an anomaly, I suppose. Fortunately, I'm in good company. There are many within my own very close peer group, who can relate. And, that's the point that I've been making.

I know the studies. My sister is a PMHNP. She justifies her own parenting choices by that which she studies and continues to learn in her profession.

Is it impossible to fathom that there are some parents capable of utilizing corporeal discipline effectively and outside of an abusive context?

 

[Alceste]

The spankings that I received as a child didn't impact me negatively, not in the long-haul. To the contrary, I understand clearly how those lessons impacted me for the positive. I understood as a kid that my Mom was in the right.

I was spanked for back talk for than anything else. We laugh about it now. I was a disrespectful little turd at times. But, I am not, as a rule, a direspectful adult and neither is my husband.

We were raised quite comparably. Our mothers are so much alike it's laughable. What we also have in common is a closeness to our families. There's genuinely no resentment for the choices our parents made through discipline.

I'm content being an anomaly, I suppose. Fortunately, I'm in good company. There are many within my own very close peer group, who can relate. And, that's the point that I've been making.

I know the studies. My sister is a PMHNP. She justifies her own parenting choices by that which she studies and continues to learn in her profession.

Is it impossible to fathom that there are some parents capable of utilizing corporeal discipline effectively and outside of an abusive context?

I appreciate the insight into your personal experience. I just gotta say though, "it did me no harm" is a very common reason the children of people who spank argue in favour of carrying on the tradition. In fact, I'd say it's the MOST common reason.

It's also the least rational or empirical reason anyone could come up with, and therefore the least persuasive.

This is because you don't know how you would have turned out if you hadn't been spanked for back talk.

Studies are more persuasive.

 

[Drolefille]

The spankings that I received as a child didn't impact me negatively, not in the long-haul. To the contrary, I understand clearly how those lessons impacted me for the positive. I understood as a kid that my Mom was in the right.

I was spanked for back talk for than anything else. We laugh about it now. I was a disrespectful little turd at times. But, I am not, as a rule, a direspectful adult and neither is my husband.

We were raised quite comparably. Our mothers are so much alike it's laughable. What we also have in common is a closeness to our families. There's genuinely no resentment for the choices our parents made through discipline.

I'm content being an anomaly, I suppose. Fortunately, I'm in good company. There are many within my own very close peer group, who can relate. And, that's the point that I've been making.

I know the studies. My sister is a PMHNP. She justifies her own parenting choices by that which she studies and continues to learn in her profession.

Is it impossible to fathom that there are some parents capable of utilizing corporeal discipline effectively and outside of an abusive context?

I can say that being spanked did not lead me to respect my father, just fear him. It might have stopped the behavior at the time, but it didn't change my thoughts, only cemented them. And it led to an increase in poor coping skills on my part, because anger was responded to physically.

I've never made the claim that people who spank their children are abusive. Is it impossible to fathom that even people who you would not consider abusive otherwise made poor choices in spanking their children that did lead to lasting effects that don't have to be dramatic life destroying ones but were still harmful?

Because I was responding to your "Where are these people." and I suppose in responding only to the latter portion of my post and with a counter example you've sort of proven my point. We're here, we just don't necessarily jump up and down about it, and there's probably not a single one of my friends I've ever mentioned the topic to. And I don't want to hear "oh it was no big deal for me" and have my experiences brushed off. I don't want you to be scarred by your past, I'm not expecting you to be, I'm simply pointing out that sometimes wounds leave scars and sometimes they don't. And I was never beaten with an object or otherwise abused, so I'm purely speaking of spanking.

"I rode without my seatbelt and survived" is something I also commonly hear from previous generations. That doesn't mean that plenty of others didn't. Or almost didn't. I can't buy an appeal to tradition over the science.

 

[dawny0826]

I appreciate the insight into your personal experience. I just gotta say though, "it did me no harm" is a very common reason the children of people who spank argue in favour of carrying on the tradition. In fact, I'd say it's the MOST common reason.

My parents have never had reason to argue in favor of their disciplinary choices. As kids we were happy, healthy and thrived.

You're projecting as if parents who spank their kids owe society some sort of explanation for their choices. I didn't realize that law-abiding citizens were obligated to justify their choices to society.

It's also the least rational or empirical reason anyone could come up with, and therefore the least persuasive.

It's far more irrational to make sweeping generalizations, in my opinion, without insight into the indiviudal lives of families.

This is because you don't know how you would have turned out if you hadn't been spanked for back talk.

I doubt that I would be the person that I am.

Studies are more persuasive.

I can certainly understand why parents would opt out of utilizing any form of corporeal punishment with their children. I also commend those who make educated choices.

There's a key distinction here, however. I'm not trying to sway the minds of parents in any direction, save, perhaps avoidance of extremes, which in my opinion would entail deliberate child abuse or to refrain from disciplining/guiding a child at all.

 

[dawny0826]

I can say that being spanked did not lead me to respect my father, just fear him. It might have stopped the behavior at the time, but it didn't change my thoughts, only cemented them. And it led to an increase in poor coping skills on my part, because anger was responded to physically.

My experiences were very different. I recall the majority of my spankings as a kid and I don't recall a time where my parents didn't talk to me about what I had done wrong, why I was spanked and reassured that I was loved regardless.

Maybe my own personality and emotional makeup made for a working situation. But, I'm also at peace over the manner by which my parents reared us, to include their brand of discipline, because, I saw in childhood and in adulthood the benefits in my life.

I don't expect anyone to agree that spanking a child is the way to go. I've offered a different perspective in hopes to offer a better understanding from experiences and perspective of one who doesn't struggle with pain and resentment as a result of the my parent's choices to spank or swat.

I've never made the claim that people who spank their children are abusive. Is it impossible to fathom that even people who you would not consider abusive otherwise made poor choices in spanking their children that did lead to lasting effects that don't have to be dramatic life destroying ones but were still harmful?

You haven't. But, I do feel that it's been implied by others.

Of course, I understand the negate impacts that physical discipline can yield, by those who set out to intentionally and unintentionally harm their children.

Because I was responding to your "Where are these people." and I suppose in responding only to the latter portion of my post and with a counter example you've sort of proven my point.

Respectfully, Drollefille, by what you've shared with me - I really don't consider us in the same boat, in the regards that the manner by which we were punished as kids yielded very different results, at least from an emotional perspective.

I was specifically referencing people more like my sisters, my husband, my brother in laws, myself and my closest friends.

And I do think that our experiences, even if they differ should be accounted for when reviewing studies on the long-term impacts of corporeal punishment.

We're here, we just don't necessarily jump up and down about it, and there's probably not a single one of my friends I've ever mentioned the topic to. And I don't want to hear "oh it was no big deal for me" and have my experiences brushed off.

Why would the experiences of others belittle your own? Or are you suggesting that your friends might not be honest with you?

I don't want you to be scarred by your past, I'm not expecting you to be, I'm simply pointing out that sometimes wounds leave scars and sometimes they don't. And I was never beaten with an object or otherwise abused, so I'm purely speaking of spanking.

Understood. And for what it's worth, in no way do I undermine the significance of your own experiences.

"I rode without my seatbelt and survived" is something I also commonly hear from previous generations. That doesn't mean that plenty of others didn't. Or almost didn't. I can't buy an appeal to tradition over the science.

And I have no disrespect for this in the slightest.

I consistently contend that corporeal discipline does not always translate to abuse.

 

[Father Heathen]

Seems pretty emotional in here.

This post of yours being a fine example.

Personally, I don't see why children should have fewer rights than adults and pets in the matter of rights against violence. I'm in favor of making it illegal to strike children, either as parents or school employees, just as it's illegal to strike spouses (at least in some parts of the world) or adult employees. I don't see why child abuse should be legal,

Child abuse is already illegal, and no one here is suggesting that it should be. Comparing spanking to actual abuse diminishes the gravity of the word, and I don't think the victims of real abuse would appreciate that. I dare anyone to show up to a survivor's group therapy session just because you had you bottom popped a few times as a kid.

unlike other forms of physical abuse which are generally illegal. We can't hit other adults because it's not civilized behavior.

Other adults, spouse or otherwise, aren't our children. So of course spanking them as a form of correction or punishment is out of line; you're not raising them. It's an asinine comparison.

-If you hit a pet, you're risking legal action for animal abuse.

I assume that you would considered a bop on the nose with a newspaper for being naughty as a form of animal abuse?

-If you hit an adult without consent, you're risking legal action for assault.
-But if you hit a human child, that's "discipline" in some places.

Because it's not remotely comparable, obviously. Also "hit" is broad and vague. Are you actually comparing a punch or a hard slap across the face to a firm yet restrained spank on the bottom?

And "discipline" in that context means using physical violence on a child to teach her or him how to be psychologically healthy and handle their problems constructively.

-_-'

>_< U_U O_O ^_^ @_@

 

[Penumbra]

This post of yours being a fine example.

In what way was it emotional?

Child abuse is already illegal, and no one here is suggesting that it should be. Comparing spanking to actual abuse diminishes the gravity of the word, and I don't think the victims of real abuse would appreciate that. I dare anyone to show up to a survivor's group therapy session just because you had you bottom popped a few times as a kid.

Other adults, spouse or otherwise, aren't our children. So of course spanking them as a form of correction or punishment is out of line; you're not raising them. It's an asinine comparison.

How is it an asinine comparison?

In some countries, men are allowed to hit their wives. Why? Because they're the smarter and more mature ones, as viewed by their culture. So they can hit their wives to discipline them, within certain constraints. Like children.

Yet many countries view that as clearly wrong, and consider it domestic violence when it happens. Similarly, many countries view using physical violence against children as wrong, and make corporal punishment illegal, like the Scandinavian countries and some others.

I assume that you would considered a bop on the nose with a newspaper for being naughty as a form of animal abuse?

Are you comparing this to spanking children? A "bop" on the nose of a dog with newspaper would just make it look at you like, "what?" Striking a child, however, often leads to that child crying, getting all sorts of upset, etc. Because it's harder than a tiny bop.

So how is that a valid comparison? If you hit a dog hard enough to cause it clearly be in pain, as children are clearly in pain when being hit, that would indeed be animal abuse.

Because it's not remotely comparable, obviously. Also "hit" is broad and vague. Are you actually comparing a punch or a hard slap across the face to a firm yet restrained spank on the bottom?

There are various degrees of causing pain, obviously.

If it's a hit enough to cause pain, fear, perhaps crying (hence being considered a disciplinary method rather than some purely symbolic gesture), then that's different than a bop on the nose with newspaper.

People seem to be acting like physical violence against children is necessary. And yet, several studies and professional organizations disagree that it's a positive form of discipline (carrying far more negatives than positives, statistically), many countries disallow corporal punishment (including many with the lowest crime rates), if anything corporal punishment shows a shows a small positive correlation with rates of violence in the area as per the charts I previously posted, and it's inversely correlated with education levels of the parents, meaning that the higher the level of education the parents have, the less likely they are to use corporal punishment, statistically.

>_< U_U O_O ^_^ @_@

:hug:

 

[Thana]

People seem to be acting like physical violence against children is necessary. And yet, several studies and professional organizations disagree that it's a positive form of discipline (carrying far more negatives than positives, statistically), many countries disallow corporal punishment (including many with the lowest crime rates), if anything corporal punishment shows a shows a small positive correlation with rates of violence in the area as per the charts I previously posted, and it's inversely correlated with education levels of the parents, meaning that the higher the level of education the parents have, the less likely they are to use corporal punishment, statistically.

:hug:

I have to add, Everything you said is actually not true.
From the research I have done, The Corporal punishment ban in Sweden actually did not lower the violence, In fact, it was the exact opposite.
And then you have to consider Singapore, Which uses corporal punishment, And they're one of the lowest crime rate countries.

Not only that, But studies (08.24.2001 - UC Berkeley study finds no lasting harm among adolescents from moderate spanking earlier in childhood) have shown that there are no adverse affects to infrequent, selective spanking on young children. And in fact, It can reduce aggression. Another study showed that kids who had been smacked were more likely to become successful adults.

So overall, you have conflicting reports. Although I've been reading that the studies that showed there were 'adverse effects' were done by people who were self proclaimed anti-spanking and a lot of the studies didn't hold up to peer review, which I imagine was because of the bias.

Also, Looking at your link, She says this -

Gershoff found "strong associations" between corporal punishment and all eleven child behaviors and experiences.

What the heck is that? Strong associations?
You can find strong associations with anything if you look hard enough.

Very bias and dodgy evidence if you ask me.

 

[Penumbra]

I have to add, Everything you said is actually not true.

From the research I have done, The Corporal punishment ban in Sweden actually did not lower the violence, In fact, it was the exact opposite.

And then you have to consider Singapore, Which uses corporal punishment, And they're one of the lowest crime rate countries.

That's already been answered, so I'm not going to repeat it.

You also didn't address "everything" I said in order to say "everything" I said is not true. You didn't address how corporal punishment is inversely proportional with education levels of parents, nor did you address the charts I posed of US states, corporal punishment, and crime statistics, nor did you address much of what else I said.

Not only that, But studies (08.24.2001 - UC Berkeley study finds no lasting harm among adolescents from moderate spanking earlier in childhood) have shown that there are no adverse affects to infrequent, selective spanking on young children. And in fact, It can reduce aggression. Another study showed that kids who had been smacked were more likely to become successful adults.

So overall, you have conflicting reports. Although I've been reading that the studies that showed there were 'adverse effects' were done by people who were self proclaimed anti-spanking and a lot of the studies didn't hold up to peer review, which I imagine was because of the bias.

Also, Looking at your link, She says this -

What the heck is that? Strong associations?
You can find strong associations with anything if you look hard enough.

Very bias and dodgy evidence if you ask me.

Your link is to a study of only 100 families. Mine is to a meta analysis of 62 years worth of studies, examining them and performing reviews on them to reach conclusions from all of those studies combined to see how many studies say one thing vs another thing; a sample size orders of magnitude larger. The one I linked to even includes as a reference Diana Baumind and her studies, who is the researcher of the study you linked to, and one data point out of the many.

 

[Thana]

That's already been answered, so I'm not going to repeat it.

You also didn't address "everything" I said in order to say "everything" I said is not true. You didn't address how corporal punishment is inversely proportional with education levels of parents, nor did you address the charts I posed of US states, corporal punishment, and crime statistics, nor did you address much of what else I said.

You didn't provide any links. How am I supposed to verify what you put up, Or research it for myself?

Your link is to a study of only 100 families. Mine is to a meta analysis of 62 years worth of studies, examining them and performing reviews on them to reach conclusions from all of those studies combined to see how many studies say one thing vs another thing; a sample size orders of magnitude larger. The one I linked to even includes as a reference Diana Baumind and her studies, who is the researcher of the study you linked to, and one data point out of the many.

Ah so, according to Diana Baumrind, The study wasn't even relevant.
(Especially since the kind of spanking we're all talking about is not what was studied)

The evidence presented in the meta-analysis does not justify a blanket injunction against mild to moderate disciplinary spanking," conclude Baumrind and her team. Baumrind et al. also conclude that "a high association between corporal punishment and physical abuse is not evidence that mild or moderate corporal punishment increases the risk of abuse."

Also, Gershoff's study wasn't even conclusive.

 

[Bunyip]

There seem to be several different topics being mixed up in this thread, I think that it is a result of people having strong feelings - but it does make for an exchange that is often at cross purposes.

The positions being conflated/equated or exchanged for each other are very different and not necessarily related.

1. That spanking is beneficial. (which I don't think has been validated.)
2. That all parents who spank are child abusers. (which I don't think any of the anti-spankers are actually arguing)
3. That spanking is always damaging. (which I don't think any of the anti-spankers are arguing for either)
4. That spanking should be banned. (which I am unsure of, because it can not be enforced without some very intrusive laws.

To be a person who believes spanking is not a useful method with which to train children, does not mean that that person believes all who do spank are child abusers, or that spanking is always detrimental, or that spanking should be banned.

 

[Penumbra]

You didn't provide any links. How am I supposed to verify what you put up, Or research it for myself?

What? I've provided numerous links.

Ah so, according to Diana Baumrind, The study wasn't even relevant.
(Especially since the kind of spanking we're all talking about is not what was studied)

Diana Baumrind was the researcher of the study you linked to that focused on over 100 participants. She was referenced among the 88 studies in the meta analysis I linked to that included tens of thousands of participants.

And actually that kind of spanking was what was studied. Out of those 88 studies, they were sorted into specifically what sort of corporal punishment the studies focused on, and many of them focused specifically on spanking.

Also, Gershoff's study wasn't even conclusive.

Have you read it? As the summary of the meta analysis describes, there were eleven associations with corporal punishment (things like aggression, mental health, criminal behavior, antisocial behavior, immediate compliance, etc), and of those, 10 of them had negative correlations with corporal punishment. The only thing positively correlated with corporal punishment was immediate compliance, and the price that was paid for that compliance, statistically, were the other 10 things such as mental health, aggression, later crime rates, etc.

In fact out of 88 studies, to go into more detail, there were 117 associations made (since some studies focused on more than one). And of those 117 associations, 7 were desirable, and 110 were undesirable. For example, of the 31 studies that compared corporal punishment with aggression (27 for aggression in children and 4 for aggression in later adulthood), there were 31 studies showing undesirable associations and 0 studies showing desirable associations. Or, for example, of the 20 studies that compared mental health to corporal punishment (12 in childhood, 8 for later adulthood), thee were 20 showing undesirable associations and 0 showing desirable associations.

 

[Thana]

What? I've provided numerous links.

I haven't found any, Especially those maps, No links on those.

Diana Baumrind was the researcher of the study you linked to that focused on over 100 participants. She was referenced among the 88 studies in the meta analysis I linked to that included tens of thousands of participants.

And actually that kind of spanking was what was studied. Out of those 88 studies, they were sorted into specifically what sort of corporal punishment the studies focused on, and many of them focused specifically on spanking.

That wasn't the only study I was talking about

A study entailing 2,600 interviews pertaining to corporal punishment, including the questioning of 179 teenagers about getting spanked and smacked by their parents, was conducted by Marjorie Gunnoe, professor of psychology at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

Gunnoe’s findings, announced this week: “The claims made for not spanking children fail to hold up. They are not consistent with the data.”

Those who were physically disciplined performed better than those who weren’t in a whole series of categories, including school grades, an optimistic outlook on life, the willingness to perform volunteer work, and the ambition to attend college, Gunnoe found. And they performed no worse than those who weren’t spanked in areas like early sexual activity, getting into fights, and becoming depressed. She found little difference between the sexes or races.

And also, It was 164 families -

Dr. Diana Baumrind of the University of California, Berkeley and her teams of professional researchers over a decade conducted what is considered the most extensive and methodologically thorough child development study yet done. They examined 164 families, tracking their children from age four to 14. Baumrind found that spanking can be helpful in certain contexts and discovered “no evidence for unique detrimental effects of normative physical punishment.”

Have you read it? As the summary of the meta analysis describes, there were eleven associations with corporal punishment (things like aggression, mental health, criminal behavior, antisocial behavior, immediate compliance, etc), and of those, 10 of them had negative correlations with corporal punishment. The only thing positively correlated with corporal punishment was immediate compliance, and the price that was paid for that compliance, statistically, were the other 10 things such as mental health, aggression, later crime rates, etc.

In fact out of 88 studies, to go into more detail, there were 117 associations made (since some studies focused on more than one). And of those 117 associations, 7 were desirable, and 110 were undesirable. For example, of the 31 studies that compared corporal punishment with aggression (27 for aggression in children and 4 for aggression in later adulthood), there were 31 studies showing undesirable associations and 0 studies showing desirable associations. Or, for example, of the 20 studies that compared mental health to corporal punishment (12 in childhood, 8 for later adulthood), thee were 20 showing undesirable associations and 0 showing desirable associations.

The difference is, Gershoff found "strong associations".

Dr. Diana Baumrind and Marjorie Gunnoe found conclusive evidence that spanking does not have any adverse effects and actually can be beneficial.

 

[dawny0826]

What? I've provided numerous links.

Diana Baumrind was the researcher of the study you linked to that focused on over 100 participants. She was referenced among the 88 studies in the meta analysis I linked to that included tens of thousands of participants.

And actually that kind of spanking was what was studied. Out of those 88 studies, they were sorted into specifically what sort of corporal punishment the studies focused on, and many of them focused specifically on spanking.

Have you read it? As the summary of the meta analysis describes, there were eleven associations with corporal punishment (things like aggression, mental health, criminal behavior, antisocial behavior, immediate compliance, etc), and of those, 10 of them had negative correlations with corporal punishment. The only thing positively correlated with corporal punishment was immediate compliance, and the price that was paid for that compliance, statistically, were the other 10 things such as mental health, aggression, later crime rates, etc.

In fact out of 88 studies, to go into more detail, there were 117 associations made (since some studies focused on more than one). And of those 117 associations, 7 were desirable, and 110 were undesirable. For example, of the 31 studies that compared corporal punishment with aggression (27 for aggression in children and 4 for aggression in later adulthood), there were 31 studies showing undesirable associations and 0 studies showing desirable associations. Or, for example, of the 20 studies that compared mental health to corporal punishment (12 in childhood, 8 for later adulthood), thee were 20 showing undesirable associations and 0 showing desirable associations.

Gershoff has stated the following:

"The act of corporal punishment itself is different across parents - parents vary in how frequently they use it, how forcefully they administer it, how emotionally aroused they are when they do it, and whether they combine it with other techniques. Each of these qualities of corporal punishment can determine which child-mediated processes are activated, and, in turn, which outcomes may be realized," Gershoff concludes.

Also, from this article:

Is Corporal Punishment an Effective Means of Discipline?

But, Gershoff also cautions that her findings do not imply that all children who experience corporal punishment turn out to be aggressive or delinquent. A variety of situational factors, such as the parent/child relationship, can moderate the effects of corporal punishment. Furthermore, studying the true effects of corporal punishment requires drawing a boundary line between punishment and abuse. This is a difficult thing to do, especially when relying on parents' self-reports of their discipline tactics and interpretations of normative punishment.

The meta-analysis also demonstrates that the frequency and severity of the corporal punishment matters. The more often or more harshly a child was hit, the more likely they are to be aggressive or to have mental health problems.

I lean more towards agreeance with Dr. Larzalere's research, though, I acknowledge that his research has not been as extenstive. I can, however, identify with the conditional spanking as this type of corporal punishment better aligns with the type of punishemnt I received as a child. I have spanked so much less than my own parents did, but, still identify with this.

Source: The case against spanking

As in many areas of science, some researchers disagree about the validity of the studies on physical punishment. Robert Larzelere, PhD, an Oklahoma State University professor who studies parental discipline, was a member of the APA task force who issued his own minority report because he disagreed with the scientific basis of the task force recommendations. While he agrees that parents should reduce their use of physical punishment, he says most of the cited studies are correlational and don&#8217;t show a causal link between physical punishment and long-term negative effects for children.

&#8220;The studies do not discriminate well between non-abusive and overly severe types of corporal punishment,&#8221; Larzelere says. &#8220;You get worse outcomes from corporal punishment than from alternative disciplinary techniques only when it is used more severely or as the primary discipline tactic.&#8221;

In a meta-analysis of 26 studies, Larzelere and a colleague found that an approach they described as &#8220;conditional spanking&#8221; led to greater reductions in child defiance or anti-social behavior than 10 of 13 alternative discipline techniques, including reasoning, removal of privileges and time out (Clinical Child and Family Psychology Review, 2005). Larzelere defines conditional spanking as a disciplinary technique for 2- to 6-year-old children in which parents use two open-handed swats on the buttocks only after the child has defied milder discipline such as time out.

Gershoff says all of the studies on physical punishment have some shortcomings. &#8220;Unfortunately, all research on parent discipline is going to be correlational because we can&#8217;t randomly assign kids to parents for an experiment. But I don&#8217;t think we have to disregard all research that has been done,&#8221; she says. &#8220;I can just about count on one hand the studies that have found anything positive about physical punishment and hundreds that have been negative.&#8221;

Studies reasonably validate the decision of parents and medical/mental professionals to refrain from advocating for corporal punishment.

I'm not certain that research has been thorough enough to evaluate the effects of conditional type spanking or variances thereof and the long-term impacts on these children.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The ethics and morality of anyone who thinks it's ok to hit a child are highly questionable. Only someone who is truly weak and cowardly needs to resort to violence against a child to fool themselves into thinking the child will become loyal, obedient, and respectful.
Kinda funny how people think spanking is the way to go, yet in all my dealings with children my experience has been that treating them fairly and with respect, not raising your voice above a strong sterness, and treating them like regular people has worked out much better for me than anyone else in my family, who does resort to yelling and spanking. My brothers kids will actually listen to me before my brother, and even consider my thoughts and input way before they do his.

 

[Thana]

The ethics and morality of anyone who thinks it's ok to hit a child are highly questionable. Only someone who is truly weak and cowardly needs to resort to violence against a child to fool themselves into thinking the child will become loyal, obedient, and respectful.
Kinda funny how people think spanking is the way to go, yet in all my dealings with children my experience has been that treating them fairly and with respect, not raising your voice above a strong sterness, and treating them like regular people has worked out much better for me than anyone else in my family, who does resort to yelling and spanking. My brothers kids will actually listen to me before my brother, and even consider my thoughts and input way before they do his.

Hmph. No need to get personal, But I'll play ball.

Wouldn't you say that someone who flat out refuses to do something that has the potential to help/protect their child is immoral?

Wouldn't you also say it is more weak and cowardly to be close minded? Or to judge others on how they raise their children?

I bet you would love my neices, You can try and reason with them till the cows come home, But you won't get anywhere. Stubborn, like their Aunty

I just wish people wouldn't throw out accusations like low-morals and use trigger words like 'abuse'.I abhor generalizing and that's pretty much all you're doing.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Hmph. No need to get personal, But I'll play ball.

Wouldn't you say that someone who flat out refuses to do something that has the potential to help/protect their child is immoral?

Wouldn't you also say it is more weak and cowardly to be close minded? Or to judge others on how they raise their children?

I bet you would love my neices, You can try and reason with them till the cows come home, But you won't get anywhere. Stubborn, like their Aunty

I just wish people wouldn't throw out accusations like low-morals and use trigger words like 'abuse'.I abhor generalizing and that's pretty much all you're doing.

You don't need to hit a child. How can we ever claim to be the "civilized and advanced" society we are if we condone hitting children? Different children require different disciplines, but striking a child isn't going to get the point across. And rather than instilling respect and admiration, more often than not you instill fear and dishonesty. Even stubborn children (which I have plenty of experience with and am terribly stubborn myself), you do not need violence.
And I use the words "weak and cowardly" because resorting to force to establish and maintain power are the ways of oppression and of the tyrant.

 

[Alceste]

I haven't found any, Especially those maps, No links on those.



That wasn't the only study I was talking about

And also, It was 164 families -



The difference is, Gershoff found "strong associations".

Dr. Diana Baumrind and Marjorie Gunnoe found conclusive evidence that spanking does not have any adverse effects and actually can be beneficial.

That is a large misrepresentation. None of these studies are "conclusive evidence". You're quoting pro spanking articles whose authors have low scientific literacy and a biased perspective. A journalist calling an outlier study "conclusive" doesn't make it so.

Also, Gunnoe and Baumrind whittled down their sample group until the physical punishment practiced by the subject families was so minor, infrequent, dispassionate and short lived that the negative effects that EVEN THEY acknowledge are correlated with spanking were eliminated. That doesn't show "spanking does no harm." It shows light, infrequent, open handed spanking of preschoolers by emotionally calm parents does no MORE harm than not spanking.

Both your family and your sister's family as you described them would have been weeded out because they spank with objects, and when they are not emotionally calm. The studies you cite acknowledge that both factors are associated with harm.

 

[Thana]

That is a large misrepresentation. None of these studies are "conclusive evidence". You're quoting pro spanking articles whose authors have low scientific literacy and a biased perspective. A journalist calling an outlier study "conclusive" doesn't make it so.

Also, Gunnoe and Baumrind whittled down their sample group until the physical punishment practiced by the subject families was so minor, infrequent, dispassionate and short lived that the negative effects that EVEN THEY acknowledge are correlated with spanking were eliminated. That doesn't show "spanking does no harm." It shows light, infrequent, open handed spanking of preschoolers by emotionally calm parents does no MORE harm than not spanking.

Both your family and your sister's family as you described them would have been weeded out because they spank with objects, and when they are not emotionally calm. The studies you cite acknowledge that both factors are associated with harm.

Penumbra and Shadow are talking about all spanking, Dawny is talking about the spanking that you've described. (Light, barehand, young kids) Which is not an issue. I may have a more extreme position, but that's neither here nor there.

Spanking is not harmful. That's it.

My ideas are debatable, But that's not what's being talked about.

 

[Mister_T]

I just wish people wouldn't throw out accusations like low-morals and use trigger words like 'abuse'.I abhor generalizing and that's pretty much all you're doing.

Unfortunately, buzzwords, straw-men and demonization are the only methods that work in eliminating any differences between spanking and child abuse for a lot of the anti-spanking crowd. That in itself is pretty low on morals, but good luck getting the point across to them.