Spherical earth belief in ad177

[*Paul*]

Chapter 8. Absurdities of Polytheism.​

By Athenagoras the Athenian: Philosopher and Christian circa AD177 ish (i think)
For if the world, being made spherical, is confined within the circles of heaven, and the Creator of the world is above the things created, managing that by His providential care of these, what place is there for the second god, or for the other gods?
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0205.htm

Did anyone know about this? Does it say what it appears to say about the world being a sphere? The world being confined in the heavens (space) must mean the earth. There looks like a couple of references from the bible in here:

Isa 40v22: It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Job 22v14: Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.

Was this forgotten?

 

[James the Persian]

Was this forgotten?

Only in the west. The usual observation that 'everyone thought the world was flat until...' (take your pick, but it's often claimed to be Columbus' discovery of the Americas even though pretty much everyone even in the west knew the earth was spherical before then) is rubbish. In the west with the loss of Greek went a loss of Greek learning and this only was rectified in the Renaissance. The east had no Renaissance as it never lost this learning in the first place. That's why we, unlike the RCC, never had a period of persecuting scientists for correcting erroneous beliefs about the physical world.

James

 

[*Paul*]

Only in the west. The usual observation that 'everyone thought the world was flat until...' (take your pick, but it's often claimed to be Columbus' discovery of the Americas even though pretty much everyone even in the west knew the earth was spherical before then) is rubbish.

Clearly this is what i thought too until I stumbled accross this quote.

In the west with the loss of Greek went a loss of Greek learning and this only was rectified in the Renaissance. The east had no Renaissance as it never lost this learning in the first place.

Really? So the east always held to a spherical earth belief?

That's why we, unlike the RCC, never had a period of persecuting scientists for correcting erroneous beliefs about the physical world.

Yeah I was going to mention Gallileo in my original thread then realised that was about the orbit of the earth / sun not the shape of it.

So the eastern orthodox church never lost these beliefs?

 

[James the Persian]

Clearly this is what i thought too until I stumbled accross this quote.

Most people seem to. Western countries really do teach history in the most parochial way. I remember that there was only one time at school when my Church was even mentioned and that was in passing and the information utterly wrong (apparently we split with Rome over their use of icons )

Really? So the east always held to a spherical earth belief?

Yes. I know of nobody in the east ever suggesting that the earth was flat. That was an uneducated western view. It was, after all, Muslim conquest of Roman (Byzantine as western revisionists later called it) lands and the subsequent Crusades that actually brought Greek science to the west resulting in the Renaissance (the Reconquista also played its part in this respect).

Yeah I was going to mention Gallileo in my original thread then realised that was about the orbit of the earth / sun not the shape of it.

Galileo wasn't the only scientist to face the ire of the Vatican either. In contrast the Greek Fathers and later eastern theologians often made use of contemporary science in their theological works. Totally different atitude.

So the eastern orthodox church never lost these beliefs?

I wouldn't put it quite like that. They aren't religious beliefs, they're secular knowledge. The culture in which our Church existed never lost the knowledge of the Greeks and the Church did, on occasion, make use of it, but they weren't Church beliefs as such. Hopefully the distinction I'm trying to make makes sense and doesn't just look pedantic. The Church in the east simply never felt that there was any need to protect faith by trampling on science - the creation speaks of the Creator after all.

James

 

[*Paul*]

Most people seem to. Western countries really do teach history in the most parochial way. I remember that there was only one time at school when my Church was even mentioned and that was in passing and the information utterly wrong (apparently we split with Rome over their use of icons )

Over their use of Icons??

Thanks for the info James, It is some task to weed out the years of english school education i've had.

Truly fascinating.

 

[Scuba Pete]

Kudos to the Orthodox Church for that. The scriptures were never meant to be a science book, and science could never prove or disprove God. Go figure.

 

[James the Persian]

Over their use of Icons??

I know. Luckily I'd already visited Romania by then (I first went in '84) so I knew that couldn't be right - and, of course, the Great Schism had nothing to do with icons at all.

Thanks for the info James, It is some task to weed out the years of english school education i've had.

Truly fascinating.

No problem. I'd recommend eading up on eastern European and 'Byzantine' history if you don't know much about it. It's fascinating and generally overlooked in schools here.

James

 

[*Paul*]

One of the things that stood out to me was the biblical reference used (as it appears) by this early writer is understood in the way that it is understood by creationists now. Some argue that the bible teaches the opposite and the creationist will often point people to the verses I posted.

It's not about the bible being a science textbook, no one believes that ( i think) just that what it does say about any subject (even scientific ones) must be true if it is written by God. God's omniscience is what is at stake in the controversy and the inspiration of the bible.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Chapter 8. Absurdities of Polytheism.​

By Athenagoras the Athenian: Philosopher and Christian circa AD177 ish (i think)
For if the world, being made spherical, is confined within the circles of heaven, and the Creator of the world is above the things created, managing that by His providential care of these, what place is there for the second god, or for the other gods?
http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0205.htm

Did anyone know about this? Does it say what it appears to say about the world being a sphere? The world being confined in the heavens (space) must mean the earth.

Plato taught that the world was round, and I suspect that many Greek philosophers preceeded him and followed him in this understanding...

There looks like a couple of references from the bible in here:

Isa 40v22: It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Job 22v14: Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.

Was this forgotten?

The ancient Hebrews, however, did not have a cosmology that included a round earth. The earth was a flat disk (circle in Is. 40.22) covered by an upside-down bowl (circuit of heaven in Job 22.14, the firmament in Genesis) with little lights fixed in the top (stars). Water was above the firmament and visible during the day (blue sky), and below the earth until the Great Flood, when the water from below was emptied to create the underworld Sheol.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

We even have pics!

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You'd think that the pics would be better, but here's an ok website:

http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/ThreeTieredUniverse.htm

 

[*Paul*]

The ancient Hebrews, however, did not have a cosmology that included a round earth. The earth was a flat disk (circle in Is. 40.22) covered by an upside-down bowl (circuit of heaven in Job 22.14, the firmament in Genesis) with little lights fixed in the top (stars). Water was above the firmament and visible during the day (blue sky), and below the earth until the Great Flood, when the water from below was emptied to create the underworld Sheol.

That doesn't mean they had the correct understanding of the text though.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

That doesn't mean they had the correct understanding of the text though.

HA! They would need the help of a good Greek philosopher!

 

[*Paul*]

HA! They would need the help of a good Greek philosopher!

Lol,:clap The bible being Gods word can be expected to be ahead of the understanding of the time yet written in a way that was relevant to them.