moorea944
Well-Known Member
How do you figure that?
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Spirit (Immortal) & Resurrection
- Thread starter Kolibri
- Start date
james2ko
Well-Known Member
1. So there is no such thing as demon (evil) spirits according to your belief or according to the New Testament?
2. If these "spirits" were coherent, living people able to listen to someone preaching, doesn't that support the immortal soul doctrine, which you do not support?
3. I realize this is the case in the OT. Can you point to an instance in the NT where the term "aggelos"(G32) refers to a "human" messenger?
4. The only issue with this interpretation is the timing. 1 Pe 3:20 specifically states it occurred in Noah's day.
1Pe 3:19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.
5. I believe tartaroo is a "real" place under the earth. Just as the third heaven is a real place above it.
6. I do not think believe we have an immortal soul which is why I believe 1 Pe 3:19 and 2 Pe 2:4 refer to demon spirits and not coherent human spirits.
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Kolibri
Well-Known Member
@moorea944
@james2ko 's #4 is how I figure. Other than his #5 I agree with everything he stated in post #82. I understand that both '3rd Heaven' and Tartarus to be 'conditions' and not 'places'.
@james2ko 's #4 is how I figure. Other than his #5 I agree with everything he stated in post #82. I understand that both '3rd Heaven' and Tartarus to be 'conditions' and not 'places'.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
The grammar also supports the preaching or proclaiming was done in Noah's day.
I once thought the same. But a deeper look into the scriptures seems to indicate it is an actual place. Strangely enough, Strong's Concordance has "tartarus" listed as a verb, but it's described as a noun (place). Notice:
"1) The name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where [denoting a place] they suffer punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews 2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus."[emphasis mine]
There are scriptures to support the notion it is more of a place than a condition. I'll post some when I get back from work.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Today is going to be a rough day for me to respond in typical fashion. I apologize in advance. I might miss something even when I do.
If one understands the spirits in Tartarus to be rebel angels, now known as demons, then it follows that Tartarus can not be a literal place because the demons can't be confined in 2 different places at the same time. Besides, prior to the cleansing of the spiritual heavens, these spirits were still able to move around from heaven to earth and back and forth generally as they pleased - while still being 'in' Tartarus. (Re 12:7-9,12)
Rather, it is a spiritual darkness, a mental block, that is placed on them, much like what happened to those that followed Elisha into Samaria. Part of their comprehension into spiritual matters is blocked. (2 Kings 6:18-20)
Evidently one of the results of the mental block is the inability of these spirits to materialize human bodies to wear as clothing as they did prior to the Flood or as faithful spirit messengers have done from time to time.
If one understands the spirits in Tartarus to be rebel angels, now known as demons, then it follows that Tartarus can not be a literal place because the demons can't be confined in 2 different places at the same time. Besides, prior to the cleansing of the spiritual heavens, these spirits were still able to move around from heaven to earth and back and forth generally as they pleased - while still being 'in' Tartarus. (Re 12:7-9,12)
Rather, it is a spiritual darkness, a mental block, that is placed on them, much like what happened to those that followed Elisha into Samaria. Part of their comprehension into spiritual matters is blocked. (2 Kings 6:18-20)
Evidently one of the results of the mental block is the inability of these spirits to materialize human bodies to wear as clothing as they did prior to the Flood or as faithful spirit messengers have done from time to time.
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moorea944
Well-Known Member
Hell or Gehenna is a real place. But let me explain first. In most case in scripture, "hell" is Gehenna in Hebrew. It was a garbage dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem. Garbage and bodies where thrown there, where "the fire was never put out" or "everlasting fire in hell" type of thing. So... is hell a real place, yes and no. Yes, it was a dump in Jerusalem. No, as in a place where the devil is.
moorea944
Well-Known Member
The 3rd Heaven.
This is a perfect example of how God communicates with intentional complexity but provides the keys to understanding accessing a vast range of validation.
The first thing to understand is the nature of the promises to Abraham. His descendants are defined as the heaven (stars) and earth (sand) in Genesis 13. Then we have the two dreams of Joseph confirming this understanding by defining these descendants of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob as the sheaves from the earth and then the stars of heaven in the 2nd dream. The confirmations of the descendants of Abraham being identified with heaven and earth are endless. In fact, this is how God Himself addresses the nation of Israel: (Deut 31:28 through 32:2; Isaiah 1:1-2). This becomes a presumed understanding throughout scripture. For example Jesus defines the destruction of the nation of Israel (the heaven and earth descendants of Abraham) as heaven and earth passing away (Matt. 24:35). Jesus had just prophesied of the resurrection of the nation of Israel (the blossoming of the fig tree in spring following the death of winter) and therefore had to confirm its death.... of there could be no resurrection. This is also exactly how Peter defines the destruction of the heaven and earth nation of the Abrahamic descendants (2 Pet 3:7-13).
The original Kingdom of God was founded at Sinai under Moses and called the Kingdom of heaven and earth. The next heaven and earth Kingdom will be the restored Kingdom (Isaiah 65:17). This is when there will be a sea of glass (Rev 4:6) indicating a sea of nations, but during a period of peace and not turmoil.. However, at the end of the Millennial Kingdom (the 2nd heaven and earth period) a new Age will follow where death will have been eliminated (Rev 20:7-15; 1 Cor 15:26). This is the third heaven and earth age (Rev 21:1) when there will be no more sea (no nations...at all). This is the 3rd heaven period... the post Millennial Kingdom period. This is the age to which the Apostle Paul was given an insight but not allowed to share with anyone. It was just for him. This also happened to John who heard the 7 thunders testify concerning when time would no longer apply but was not permitted to write down that testimony for anyone else (Rev 10:4-6).
The 3rd heaven refers to the post-Millennial Kingdom period when there will be no more nations and time will be meaningless because the Creator will be all and in all... there will be no mortality, decay, rust, rotting, sin, disease, aging or decay.
This is a perfect example of how God communicates with intentional complexity but provides the keys to understanding accessing a vast range of validation.
The first thing to understand is the nature of the promises to Abraham. His descendants are defined as the heaven (stars) and earth (sand) in Genesis 13. Then we have the two dreams of Joseph confirming this understanding by defining these descendants of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob as the sheaves from the earth and then the stars of heaven in the 2nd dream. The confirmations of the descendants of Abraham being identified with heaven and earth are endless. In fact, this is how God Himself addresses the nation of Israel: (Deut 31:28 through 32:2; Isaiah 1:1-2). This becomes a presumed understanding throughout scripture. For example Jesus defines the destruction of the nation of Israel (the heaven and earth descendants of Abraham) as heaven and earth passing away (Matt. 24:35). Jesus had just prophesied of the resurrection of the nation of Israel (the blossoming of the fig tree in spring following the death of winter) and therefore had to confirm its death.... of there could be no resurrection. This is also exactly how Peter defines the destruction of the heaven and earth nation of the Abrahamic descendants (2 Pet 3:7-13).
The original Kingdom of God was founded at Sinai under Moses and called the Kingdom of heaven and earth. The next heaven and earth Kingdom will be the restored Kingdom (Isaiah 65:17). This is when there will be a sea of glass (Rev 4:6) indicating a sea of nations, but during a period of peace and not turmoil.. However, at the end of the Millennial Kingdom (the 2nd heaven and earth period) a new Age will follow where death will have been eliminated (Rev 20:7-15; 1 Cor 15:26). This is the third heaven and earth age (Rev 21:1) when there will be no more sea (no nations...at all). This is the 3rd heaven period... the post Millennial Kingdom period. This is the age to which the Apostle Paul was given an insight but not allowed to share with anyone. It was just for him. This also happened to John who heard the 7 thunders testify concerning when time would no longer apply but was not permitted to write down that testimony for anyone else (Rev 10:4-6).
The 3rd heaven refers to the post-Millennial Kingdom period when there will be no more nations and time will be meaningless because the Creator will be all and in all... there will be no mortality, decay, rust, rotting, sin, disease, aging or decay.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
That sounds feasible. But why could it not be both? They are in the condition you describe while confined to this "spiritual prison". It is possible some are released from tartaroo, temporarily, to fulfill God's sovereign will on the earth. I think of it as a spiritual leash:
"And they begged Him that He would not command them to go out into the abyss". (Luk 8:31)
After the demons realized Christ would disembody them, they begged Him not to command them to go out into the abyss . Other translations use the term "the deep", "bottomless pit". The terms in the NT translated abyss, pit, bottomless pit, and tartarus--- as they relate to the SPIRIT world-- are all different terms describing the same place. Similar to how we assign different names to our modern day prisons: jail, bighouse, penitentiary, etc. Notice the entry for "deep" in Fausset's Bible Dictionary:
"They are free to hurt meanwhile, like a chained beast, only to the length of their chain (Jud_1:6). The "darkness of this present world," the "air" (Eph_2:2), is their peculiar element; they look forward with agonizing fear to their final torment in the bottomless pit (Rev_20:10). Language is used as though the abyss were in the lowest depth of our earth..."
The demons expressed great displeasure into entering this "place". We see evidence of this "spiritual penitentiary" in Rev 9:1-2 and Rev 20:1--
Rev_9:1-2 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star [angel] fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.
Rev_20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
Rev_20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
If it has a key, then it stands to reason it has a lock or barrier of restraint such as a “spiritual” door or gate.
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Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Yet the abyss is something that Satan goes to at the end of Armageddon for 1,000 years while Christ rules over mankind in general as Jehovah's king. It seems reasonable that the demons knew they were going to the abyss when Jesus walked the earth as a man. But did not yet know when they would be going, as that information had not been revealed yet.
Sometimes, it seems, the spirits (angels) find out new information the same time the souls (humans) do.
"Into these very things, angels are desiring to peer." - 1 Peter 1:12b
The abyss was still in their future, while Tartarus was and is their present. While in Tartarus, they first had access to both the heavens and earth till God's Kingdom began ruling the heavens. After while still in Tartarus they are confined to the vicinity of the earth increasing the woes found here till it is time for the Earth to be cleansed too.
Whereas when Satan is abyssed, and reasonably his angels along with him, access to humans will be totally denied.
"And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while." - Re 20:3
They (Tartarus and the abyss) do not seem to be the same thing.
Sometimes, it seems, the spirits (angels) find out new information the same time the souls (humans) do.
"Into these very things, angels are desiring to peer." - 1 Peter 1:12b
The abyss was still in their future, while Tartarus was and is their present. While in Tartarus, they first had access to both the heavens and earth till God's Kingdom began ruling the heavens. After while still in Tartarus they are confined to the vicinity of the earth increasing the woes found here till it is time for the Earth to be cleansed too.
Whereas when Satan is abyssed, and reasonably his angels along with him, access to humans will be totally denied.
"And he hurled him into the abyss and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not mislead the nations anymore until the 1,000 years were ended. After this he must be released for a little while." - Re 20:3
They (Tartarus and the abyss) do not seem to be the same thing.
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james2ko
Well-Known Member
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
That right. We can and still be peaceableThat's fine. We can agree to disagree every once in a while
james2ko
Well-Known Member
Ran into some unexpected time to elaborate why I disagree:
1. This is incorrect. They knew exactly "when" they were going :
2. I agree. But not in this case.
3. The terms abyss, bottomless pit, and tartaros are synonyms for the same "place": (Strongs)
4. The biblical evidence seems to indicate it is. Notice the verse you posted states there was some form of an entrance or "spiritual" door or barrier of restraint that "shuts" and obviously opens. The entrance to the "abyss" also has a "key" and its occupants are restrained with chains (Rev 9:1;20:1). It also has a king (Rev 9:11) . If it has a king, then it stands to reason it contains subjects to oversee .
Apparently its subjects are released temporarily and placed back into tartarus, abyss, bottomless pit after their work is done. Sort of like a modern day prison work-release program. This begins to form a picture eerily similar to this world's prison systems. Would it be a stretch to assume satan inspired the concept of mankind's prison systems. A system of punishment absent from the laws given to the model nation of ancient Israel?
Like those from the demonic world, its subjects are restrained from practicing "absolute" free will, complete with work release privileges, chains, cells, locks, and doors. All patterned after his own living conditions in tartarus/abyss, as a vengeful act toward his Creator and indignant parallel toward those whom God created to one day replace him and his demons.
1. This is incorrect. They knew exactly "when" they were going :
Mat_8:29 And suddenly they cried out, saying, "What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?"
2. I agree. But not in this case.
3. The terms abyss, bottomless pit, and tartaros are synonyms for the same "place": (Strongs)
Tartaros̄ --ταρταρόω--From Τάρταρος (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment: - cast down to hell.
Abyss- abussos-From G1 (as a negative particle) and a variation of G1037; depthless that is (specifically) (infernal) abyss: - deep (bottomless) pit.
Abyss- abussos-From G1 (as a negative particle) and a variation of G1037; depthless that is (specifically) (infernal) abyss: - deep (bottomless) pit.
4. The biblical evidence seems to indicate it is. Notice the verse you posted states there was some form of an entrance or "spiritual" door or barrier of restraint that "shuts" and obviously opens. The entrance to the "abyss" also has a "key" and its occupants are restrained with chains (Rev 9:1;20:1). It also has a king (Rev 9:11) . If it has a king, then it stands to reason it contains subjects to oversee .
Apparently its subjects are released temporarily and placed back into tartarus, abyss, bottomless pit after their work is done. Sort of like a modern day prison work-release program. This begins to form a picture eerily similar to this world's prison systems. Would it be a stretch to assume satan inspired the concept of mankind's prison systems. A system of punishment absent from the laws given to the model nation of ancient Israel?
Like those from the demonic world, its subjects are restrained from practicing "absolute" free will, complete with work release privileges, chains, cells, locks, and doors. All patterned after his own living conditions in tartarus/abyss, as a vengeful act toward his Creator and indignant parallel toward those whom God created to one day replace him and his demons.
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Kolibri
Well-Known Member
Perhaps they knew it was not time for them go to to the abyss as you pointed out.
However, rather than these two things, Tartarus and the Abyss being the same thing, the disobedient angels were already cast into Tartarus in "Noah's day". (1 Peter 3:20) 2000 years later we have them entreating Jesus "not to order them to go away into the abyss." (Luke 8:26-31) Even after this entreaty Paul speaks of these disobedient angels as being in "heavenly places", from which they exercise a rule of darkness as "wicked spirit forces".
There is no need to think that these ones had a work release to fulfill God's will when we realize that they were already cut off from spiritual enlightenment and God's love and that qualifies as "dense darkness."
How precious your loyal love is, O God!
In the shadow of your wings,
The sons of men take refuse.
They drink their fill of the rich bounty (Lit., "the fatness.") of your house.
And you cause them to drink of the torrent of your delights.
With you is the source of life;
By your light we can see light.
Continue showing your loyal love to those who know you,
And your righteousness, to the upright in heart.
- Psalms 36:7-10
The idea of the Biblical Tartarus being a location comes from Greek mythology. In Homer's Iliad, mythological Tartarus was represented not as a underground prison for humans but for lessor gods, 'as far below Hades as earth is below heaven.' The one similarity between Scriptural Tartarus and Greek mythological Tartarus is that it is not a detention for human souls, but only for superhuman spirits.
However, rather than these two things, Tartarus and the Abyss being the same thing, the disobedient angels were already cast into Tartarus in "Noah's day". (1 Peter 3:20) 2000 years later we have them entreating Jesus "not to order them to go away into the abyss." (Luke 8:26-31) Even after this entreaty Paul speaks of these disobedient angels as being in "heavenly places", from which they exercise a rule of darkness as "wicked spirit forces".
There is no need to think that these ones had a work release to fulfill God's will when we realize that they were already cut off from spiritual enlightenment and God's love and that qualifies as "dense darkness."
How precious your loyal love is, O God!
In the shadow of your wings,
The sons of men take refuse.
They drink their fill of the rich bounty (Lit., "the fatness.") of your house.
And you cause them to drink of the torrent of your delights.
With you is the source of life;
By your light we can see light.
Continue showing your loyal love to those who know you,
And your righteousness, to the upright in heart.
- Psalms 36:7-10
The idea of the Biblical Tartarus being a location comes from Greek mythology. In Homer's Iliad, mythological Tartarus was represented not as a underground prison for humans but for lessor gods, 'as far below Hades as earth is below heaven.' The one similarity between Scriptural Tartarus and Greek mythological Tartarus is that it is not a detention for human souls, but only for superhuman spirits.
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james2ko
Well-Known Member
1. Precisely. They knew it was not the time because they had knowledge it was suppose to occur at a future time. Knowledge you claim they did not have.
2. I'm sure you are aware there are three heavens (atmosphere, space, God's dwelling place). The "heavenly"place spoken of by Paul could also refer to satan's rulership over the atmosphere (air). The Greek term for heavenly [epuranios-G2032] can also be defined as the "heavens of the clouds" (see Thayers). Paul alludes to this earlier in the same epistle to which he later associates the term "heavenly" (Eph 3:10) to demon spirits:
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
Eph 3:10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly--G2032-- [places],
Satan and his demon's work is performed in our atmosphere. They occasionally visit God's heaven, but the atmosphere or God's heavenly realm is not their residence it is their "workplace". Tartarus/abyss/bottomless pit is there residence. They are miserable in tartarus as there is nothing to embody, possess, or destroy. Which is why the demons would rather go into some pigs, which they knew Jesus would approve, instead of going back into their holding cells. Eph 3:10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly--G2032-- [places],
3. Spiritual enlightenment is not a prerequisite for God to fulfill His will. God uses Satan and his demons as unwitting servants. They fulfill God's will, although they believe they are thwarting it.. While satan thought he was destroying Job's family, life, and health, he was unwittingly fulfilling a phase of God's plan for Job's life. He used satan's wretchedness to expose a flaw in Job's character (self-righteousness), which in the end, made Job a richer, more faithful servant of God.
4. This Psalm fits Job's situation perfectly. Especially when you add the first three verses:
Psa 36:1 Sin whispers to the wicked, deep within their hearts. They have no fear of God at all.
Psa 36:2 In their blind conceit, they cannot see how wicked they really are.
Psa 36:3 Everything they say is crooked and deceitful. They refuse to act wisely or do good.
God shows His "loyal" love to His servant Job, while utilizing satan's wickedness. Pretty awesome God we have, wouldn't you agree? Psa 36:2 In their blind conceit, they cannot see how wicked they really are.
Psa 36:3 Everything they say is crooked and deceitful. They refuse to act wisely or do good.
5. I realize that. There are several Greek mythological tales that resemble stories in scripture. As disciples are we going to dismiss them as myth? Of course not. Peter was inspired by the holy spirit to use the term. A signal to us that its Greek mythological connection should serve to enhance our understanding of God's word, not undermine it.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
1. Precisely. They knew it was not the time because they had knowledge it was suppose to occur at a future time. Knowledge you claim they did not have.
2. I'm sure you are aware there are three heavens (atmosphere, space, God's dwelling place). The "heavenly"place spoken of by Paul could also refer to satan's rulership over the atmosphere (air). The Greek term for heavenly [epuranios-G2032] can also be defined as the "heavens of the clouds" (see Thayers). Paul alludes to this earlier in the same epistle to which he later associates the term "heavenly" (Eph 3:10) to demon spirits:
Eph 2:2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,Satan and his demon's work is performed in our atmosphere. They occasionally visit God's heaven, but the atmosphere or God's heavenly realm is not their residence it is their "workplace". Tartarus/abyss/bottomless pit is there residence. They are miserable in tartarus as there is nothing to embody, possess, or destroy. Which is why the demons would rather go into some pigs, which they knew Jesus would approve, instead of going back into their holding cells.
Eph 3:10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly--G2032-- [places],
3. Spiritual enlightenment is not a prerequisite for God to fulfill His will. God uses Satan and his demons as unwitting servants. They fulfill God's will, although they believe they are thwarting it.. While satan thought he was destroying Job's family, life, and health, he was unwittingly fulfilling a phase of God's plan for Job's life. He used satan's wretchedness to expose a flaw in Job's character (self-righteousness), which in the end, made Job a richer, more faithful servant of God.
4. This Psalm fits Job's situation perfectly. Especially when you add the first three verses:
Psa 36:1 Sin whispers to the wicked, deep within their hearts. They have no fear of God at all.God shows His "loyal" love to His servant Job, while utilizing satan's wickedness. Pretty awesome God we have, wouldn't you agree?
Psa 36:2 In their blind conceit, they cannot see how wicked they really are.
Psa 36:3 Everything they say is crooked and deceitful. They refuse to act wisely or do good.
5. I realize that. There are several Greek mythological tales that resemble stories in scripture. As disciples are we going to dismiss them as myth? Of course not. Peter was inspired by the holy spirit to use the term. A signal to us that its Greek mythological connection should serve to enhance our understanding of God's word, not undermine it.
1. That was an admission of being corrected on my part. Though I could have been more clear.
2. There there is a fourth definition in the Bible for sha-may-yim. Besides the earth's atmosphere or sky, there is the whole of outer space (the "heavens of the heavens."), and the spiritual heavens where Jehovah and the faithful angels reside. In addition to these 3, heavens can also represent rulership. A parallel in thought expressed in Daniel 4:25 and Daniel 4:26 makes that connection. Later on in the book of Daniel we see these disobedient angels acting as unseen princes directing the governments existing at the time. (Daniel 10:13,20)
But the word "air" can also have a symbolic meaning. It does not need to be limited to what we breath physically but can also apply to the "spirit" or dominate mental attitude of the wicked society we live in. (1 John 2:16; 1 Timothy 6:9,10) This spirit is in direct contrast to the spirit we receive from God, and fosters disobedience. (2 Corinthians 2:12) It "authority" is in it's relentlessness and pervasiveness as well as it's appeal to our imperfect flesh. This "air" is "at work" in that it gradually nurtures selfishness, haughtiness, greedy ambition as well as other ungodly traits. It progressively causes the traits of the Devil to grow within mankind. (John 8:44; Acts 13:10; 1 John 3:8,10)
Just as Tartarus does not need to be a literal location, the world's opposing spirit, or "air" need not be a literal place.
3.. I just can not go along with this idea at all. It makes Satan an Agent of Jehovah God and that cannot be. It runs totally counter to what is said in the book of James.
"When under trial, let no one say: 'I am being tried by God.' For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone."
- James 1:13
Jehovah may withhold his protection to an extent, allowing us to demonstrate that his trust in our loyalty is not unfounded, but he does not endorse any of the evil that comes our way.
4. Jehovah never condemned Job for being wicked. It was Job's 3 false friends that were doing that and being that. The superscription shows the 36th Psalm shows it is of "Jehovah's servant, David." And it is written from the perspective of David being hounded by wicked men, and yet expresses how deeply David appreciated Jehovah's loyal love. I am having difficulty seeing how Psalms 36:1-3 applies to Job. But I can see how it applied to Satan, Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar. These 3 men had an opportunity to set matters straight with Jehovah in the end as they were perhaps unwittingly allowing themselves to be used as pawns of Satan. (Job 42:7-9)
5. We really need to be cautious not to give the Greek mythologies too much weight. Scriptural Hades is clearly a translation of the Hebrew Sheol. The condition of the dead in Sheol is much different than the Greek myth about Hades, but the term was used because in the target language, Hades was commonly recognized as a resting place for dead souls. Still there is no room for conscious thought in Sheol, so there is no room for it in the Scriptural Hades. Likewise, although Tartarus has a Greek myth use, what is important to gain from that connection is what you and I agree upon - the spirits mentioned in connection with it are not dead humans, but living superhuman spirits.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
1. A JW willing to take correction from a "seemingly" blinded Christian is duly noted.
2. For the term "air" in Eph 2:2 to have symbolic implications is a bit of a stretch for me. Satan does have literal power over the air (Job 1:19). Also, Im sure you would agree our tv, radio, and internet signals are transmitted via air. I don't have to tell you who inspires most of what's being transmitted.
The literal interpretation of Eph 2:2 and 3:10 is good enough for me. Think about it. If the third heaven is a literal, yet unseen place above the earth with transcendental occupants and objects, then it stands to reason so is tartarus below it. Jehovah is the overseer of the "aboveless", literal place called heaven, while satan is the overseer of the "bottomless", literal place called tartarus/abyss/pit. Throw in the striking parallel of tartarus and today's evil and corrupt prison system and it just makes sense.
3. Why not. As long as its scriptural? Satan cannot be Jehovah's equal. So we know he is subordinate, hence an agent subject to God's will. Since we know satan cannot create havoc without God's expressed permission (Job 1:12; 2:6), God is ultimately, though not directly, responsible for any of the devil's adverse actions. Job recognized this:
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
Job 19:21 Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O ye my friends; for the hand of God [not satan] hath touched me.
Satan also acknowledges God's control even over his [satan's] actions:
Job 1:11 But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
Job 2:5 But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
Notice satan did not say, "But let me stretch out my hand". This proves satan understands and acknowledges God's active, but indirect, role and total control of his actions. Even Jehovah Himself took responsibility for Job's demise:Job 2:5 But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!"
Job_2:3 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil? And still he holds fast to his integrity, although you incited Me against him, to destroy him without cause."
4. It really doesn't. Read the passage carefully. It states He (Jehovah) Himself (intensive nominative is grammatically established) will not try anyone. Opening the door for Him to allow an agent of His to do so.
5. Never said Jehovah condemned Job. He tested Job through his agent satan. Just as Jas 1:13 implies He can. Why do you think Christ taught us to ask Jehovah," and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil?" If we have to pray for Jehovah to lead us not into temptation and deliver us "from" evil, it stands to reason He can lead us "into" temptation and deliver us "to" evil, for our ultimate good (Jas 1:2-3; Rom 8:28). Just as He did to Job!
6. Although I cant' quite prove it just yet, I believe the idea of tartarus was somehow derived from the OT concept of sheol.
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